I'll be voting Libertarian...

Mott the Hoople said:
If it’s a libertarian...does it matter? If you vote for a libertarian you might as well vote for a brick or a broomstick or Watermark or some other inanimate object. They never do anything and never have.
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Good Morning Mott. I always love a dose of you first thing in the Morning. Hope things are still good with you. Looks like your state is taking out the trash!
 
Mott the Hoople said:
And how do you propose that they grow when they are such abject failures at building diverse political coalitions? Libertarians have to solve that problem before they can become a credible political party that can get things done.
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It's like building a house; can't build a house without a solid foundation. Right now the Libertarian party is looking to build that foundation through local and state elections. They still have a lot of work to do, but more and more Americans are dissatisfied with the two major parties creating a rich field of potential voters, specifically the Independents and the growing number of dissatisfied numbers of Democrats and Republicans.

Why do you think the ranks of the Independents have grown as the two major parties have shrunk over the past 30 years?

https://share.america.gov/rise-of-independent-voter/
The United States has two major political parties: Democratic and Republican. Ask an American voter which one she or he sides with, and the most likely answer is: “neither.”

Recent polls say at least 4 in 10 Americans identify as politically independent, even if they tend to “lean” Republican or Democratic on the issues. Only 3 in 10 identify as Democrats and the other 3 in 10 identify as Republicans. The Gallup polling organization calls this a “near historical low” for both major parties....Even so, Democrats and Republicans will keep reaching out to independents — because that’s where the votes are.


https://www.reviewjournal.com/news/...-independents-who-outnumber-dems-gop-1883684/
Independent voters will be pivotal in the 2020 presidential election, and everyone is looking for clues as to how they may vote nearly a year from today....

...“There still are enough persuadable swing/independent voters that they can decide our typically close modern elections,” said Kyle Kondik, managing editor of Sabato’s Crystal Ball at the University of Virginia Center for Politics.

Four years ago, Republican Donald Trump defeated Democrat Hillary Clinton by 1 percentage point or less in a number of states like Florida, North Carolina and Pennsylvania. In Nevada, Clinton beat Trump by 2.4 percentage points.

Elections are not always won by independent or swing voters, but they matter when the contest is close.
 
anatta said:
exceptions to the rule. Perot had a message of fiscal responsibility. Nader a long time consumerist (populist).

What was Gary Johnson's message? or the current dweeb? nobody knows or cares
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They may have been exceptions but they did have a significant political influence so it wasn’t a wasted vote.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
It’s not a matter of what libertarians believe. Hell practically no one believes in an all powerful central government and practically everyone wants limits to governments power. That isn’t the issue with Libertarians. It’s the fact that they are impotent that’s the issue.
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Then why do the Democrats, and to a lesser extent the Republicans, keep pushing for an all-powerful Federal government?

Democrats always push for Federal law over States Rights regardless of topic.

Republicans are doing the same. Notably abortion and gay marriage in previous years, but now by sending Federal troops to invade states with protesters Trump doesn't like.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
It’s not a matter of what libertarians believe. Hell practically no one believes in an all powerful central government and practically everyone wants limits to governments power. That isn’t the issue with Libertarians. It’s the fact that they are impotent that’s the issue.
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ROFL.
are you serious? tell me exactly what are the limits of the feds according to Dems? there are none

Nobody outside the Dem/Repub can "coalition build" the duopopoly.
I support libertarians where i can in the hopes of some grass roots..hope springs eternal
 
Dutch Uncle said:
Disagreed on both points. First, voting for common sense government isn't "cutting off your nose to spite your face". Over the past 30 years both the Democrats and Republicans have moved away from the center and toward the extremes. It's one reason why the Federal government has become more dysfunctional.

Bullshit on a the idea of "a vote for Libertarianism is a vote for Biden". It's a vote for Libertarianism. If most people voted Libertarian, then a Libertarian would be elected. How others vote is up to them. That's how it works.

Those on both the Left and Right who diss people voting Third Party are just proving they are political extremists who do not recognize American freedoms such as the right to vote for whom they please.
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I agree with you. If that’s where your beliefs are by all means vote your conscience if you think it can effect change. I’m just skeptical that a Libertarian could do that.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
Then why do the Democrats, and to a lesser extent the Republicans, keep pushing for an all-powerful Federal government?

Democrats always push for Federal law over States Rights regardless of topic.

Republicans are doing the same. Notably abortion and gay marriage in previous years, but now by sending Federal troops to invade states with protesters Trump doesn't like.
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Then please explain to me why we have all these institutions that prevent them from doing just exactly that?
 
Dutch Uncle said:
Republicans are doing the same. Notably abortion and gay marriage in previous years, but now by sending Federal troops to invade states with protesters Trump doesn't like.
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they are there to guard federal properties.
Lightfood actually said she wants them there, but not on the streets -
Lightfoot finally had to give after repetitive carnage
 
Phantasmal said:
Good Morning Mott. I always love a dose of you first thing in the Morning. Hope things are still good with you. Looks like your state is taking out the trash!
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Same to you my dear. I wish I could say that Ohio took the trash out but the truth is it was a Trump appointed Federal investigator who took the trash out.

It will be interesting to see if they overturn the law giving financial support to the Nuclear Energy coalition and give us refunds on the extra fees they added to our utility bills and end the restrictions they placed on renewable energy.
 
anatta said:
they are there to guard federal properties.
Lightfood actually said she wants them there, but not on the streets -
Lightfoot finally had to give after repetitive carnage
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They are there, surely, because Trump is desperate for votes, and thinks they will gain him a few. To hell with human lives and democracy!
 
Mott the Hoople said:
I agree with you. If that’s where your beliefs are by all means vote your conscience if you think it can effect change. I’m just skeptical that a Libertarian could do that.
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Two different things here: a vote for a Libertarian Presidential candidate is a protest vote. It's main effect is to deny either major party candidate 50%+ of the vote. In comparison, a person who doesn't vote at all is a person who doesn't exist as far as the parties are concerned. It sends a message to each party "I'm here, but I not voting for you assholes."
If 10 voters vote with 5 for each of two candidates, the vote is split 50/50. If 10 voters vote, 4 for one, 4 for the other and 2 for a Third Party candidate then the vote is split 40, 40, 20. The winner, no matter how many votes they receive, can't break 50%.


Secondly, every American should vote their conscience. Do you really think voting for "the lesser of two evils" is voting one's conscience?
 
anatta said:
they are there to guard federal properties.
Lightfood actually said she wants them there, but not on the streets -
Lightfoot finally had to give after repetitive carnage
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But that's not what they are doing. If a Governor asks for Federal assistance, I support it. If a President just sends them in because he doesn't like the way a state is handling it, then I'm against it. This isn't fucking Russia.
 
anatta said:
they are there to guard federal properties.
Lightfood actually said she wants them there, but not on the streets -
Lightfoot finally had to give after repetitive carnage
Click to expand...

Well then there doing a lousy fucking job as they’ve made the situation worse by behaving like a bunch of amateur wannabe storm troopers.

We have the same situation in downtown Cbus. They’re have been protestors down at the Staehouse just as long as I’m Portland but everyone goes about their business and let’s them do their thing and no shit is happening.
 
The 2 party system has failed.

I reject the argument that it's useless to vote 3rd party, and that voting that way is really a vote for candidate x or y.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
I don’t agree with that. Ross Perot and Ralph Nader had historical influences as third party candidates. Clinton and W probably owe their elections to their third part runs and both had significant impact on both major party coalitions.
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Agreed. The 1992 and 2000 elections pointed out a minor flaw in our winner-take-all voting system. I prefer a ranked system. If a ranked system was allowed in 1992, GHW Bush would have been reelected. If it had existed in 2000 Al Gore would have been elected....even though that would be unlikely if Bush had won in 1992.

I suspect that if a ranked system had existed in 2016, Trump would have won by an even larger margin since Hillary's popularity is very, very low.
 
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