Every green initiative has been a disaster

Milagro said:
Should fracking be condemned all over the US because of a few quakes in Oklahoma? The Dutch have a similar problem with the Groningen gasfield in the North Sea. They have now had to cap production to avoid triggering new quakes.

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My question implied not. But they must pay for the damage they cause. I remember the North Sea well, I barely noticed the oil wells for the topless women.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
I wasn't disputing that. I'm merely pointing out that this developing technology is probably a transitional one that is a better compromise solution, currently, to coal, petroleum and nuclear for energy production.
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Well then we agree, CCGT power stations can be built quickly, cheaply and most importantly very efficiently. It is an incredibly reliable technology which doesn't require subsidies and is available 24/7.

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Micawber said:
Why are those rare earth metals integral to a turbine? Use something else. People opposed to pollution don't favor that. Misery loves company, and you just want clean energy to be as dirty as dirty energy. You are a member of the House of Lords and you wear a powdered wig representing some fiefdom with coal mines.
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You can tell that your technical education is very elementary, without those rare earths the magnets in the wind turbines would huge and probably totally impractical.

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Mott the Hoople said:
Who is claiming they are? That's why they are called developmental and if the U.K. and Germany are eliminating subsidies maybe it's because they view the technology as mature.

You're also cherry picking as wind turbines are doing quite well in the US.
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Oh God, I was going to write a long explanation but can't be bothered just read this, you are seriously ignorant about the economics of renewables.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...destroyed-the-ability-of-the-market-to-signa/



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Milagro said:
I have already said that if you go back in the thread. CCGT power stations have resulted in the US reducing their CO2 emissions well below the limits set out in the Kyoto Treaty. You'd think to listen to some of the cretins on here that the exact opposite was true.

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Fracking trades one environmental issue for another.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
Oh nonsense. Most wind turbines in the US, for example, produce energy profitability and without much in the way of subsidies.

I really don't understand you opposition to developing alternative forms of energy given the huge economic advantages for those who successfully develop them. You would have to have a reactionary degree of short sightedness not to subsidize their development.

For example a substantial amount of subsidies were invested in shale bed fracking technologies in the US and look at the advantages we are now reaping. We'd have to be idiots not to continue investing in the development of alternative energy sources that are cheaper amad less wasteful that don't have the pollution issues of fossil fuels or the dangers of nuclear power.
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In this country, due in large part to the fossil fuel lobbies, we tend to look for alternatives only when the cost of fossil fuels are skyrocketing. We should be looking to create alternatives because we are capable, not in a reactionary way because our govt. is owned by well established energy companies.
 
Bigdog said:
According to Mott ... if you're able to follow ...
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What point are you making? Fossil fuels are from long dead life under pressure for eons. Check. The element carbon exist with or without.

The important point is the gas in my car is not a "renewable" energy source and it burns dirty. Solar, wind and hydro are clean and "renewable"

The ONLY good argument for oil or coal is price when it's low and the fact that the infrastructure and chain for it already exists from extraction to consumer.
 
Micawber said:
Why are those rare earth metals integral to a turbine? Use something else. People opposed to pollution don't favor that. Misery loves company, and you just want clean energy to be as dirty as dirty energy. You are a member of the House of Lords and you wear a powdered wig representing some fiefdom with coal mines.
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Why are you named after a Dickens character?

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Micawber said:
What point are you making? Fossil fuels are from long dead life under pressure for eons. Check. The element carbon exist with or without.

The important point is the gas in my car is not a "renewable" energy source and it burns dirty. Solar, wind and hydro are clean and "renewable"

The ONLY good argument for oil or coal is price when it's low and the fact that the infrastructure and chain for it already exists from extraction to consumer.
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Obviously, you are unable to follow my discussion with Mott. :dunno:

So go with bio diesel, all the delivery infrastructure is in place and it's about $1k to modify your vehicle to run on it. :dunno:
 
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Mott the Hoople said:
Oh nonsense. Most wind turbines in the US, for example, produce energy profitability and without much in the way of subsidies.

I really don't understand you opposition to developing alternative forms of energy given the huge economic advantages for those who successfully develop them. You would have to have a reactionary degree of short sightedness not to subsidize their development.

For example a substantial amount of subsidies were invested in shale bed fracking technologies in the US and look at the advantages we are now reaping. We'd have to be idiots not to continue investing in the development of alternative energy sources that are cheaper amad less wasteful that don't have the pollution issues of fossil fuels or the dangers of nuclear power.
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You are the one spouting nonsense. Wind turbines requires huge subsidies to even survive, if you deny that then I feel truly sorry for you. As the article states over 35 years there have been $30 billion in federal subsidies for wind just to produce a paltry 4% of the total electricity in the US. Of course it is even worse than that as fossil fuels still need to be there to smooth out the peaks and troughs. You're not an idiot Mott, you must know all this stuff surely?

Warren Buffett has stated that it is only because of federal subsidies that wind is even in the mix at all.

http://theconversation.com/wind-costs-more-than-you-think-due-to-massive-federal-subsidies-38804

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Althea said:
In this country, due in large part to the fossil fuel lobbies, we tend to look for alternatives only when the cost of fossil fuels are skyrocketing. We should be looking to create alternatives because we are capable, not in a reactionary way because our govt. is owned by well established energy companies.
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So now we are into conspiracy theories, so explain why T. Boone Pickens, a Texas oilman, was so enthusiastic about wind. It's simple enough, he saw the huge subsidies and decided to fill his boots.

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Althea said:
In this country, due in large part to the fossil fuel lobbies, we tend to look for alternatives only when the cost of fossil fuels are skyrocketing. We should be looking to create alternatives because we are capable, not in a reactionary way because our govt. is owned by well established energy companies.
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So now we are into conspiracy theories, so explain why T. Boone Pickens, a Texas oilman, was so enthusiastic about wind. It's simple enough, he saw the huge subsidies and decided to fill his boots.
Micawber said:
My question implied not. But they must pay for the damage they cause. I remember the North Sea well, I barely noticed the oil wells for the topless women.
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No topless women in Scotland where the majority of UK oil is located, it's too bloody cold. You might see some blue tits though, of the feathered variety only.


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iewitness said:
I must testify that there have been leaps of improvement in the HVAC industry. the change from r4 duct insulation to r8 is good. the r410a refrigerant is indeed better. I must say that mini split heat pumps are many times better than ducted environmental control. furthermore ;the computer managed internal combustion engines are fantastic. the ditches are clean. when I was a kid I would collect glass bottles from the ditches along the roads. I bought not a few gallons of gas for the cycle, worms for the fishin' and anything else attainable at the hoyle's # 5 in lucia. air is cleaner. water is cleaner. energy usage efficiency is many times better. however; the global initiatives are stupid. we do well.
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You collected bottles and bought worms?
Worms are free from the dirt in your yard.
 
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