you no longer have a 4th Amendment

freedom is gone. you have none anymore. you will live, die, or be imprisoned at the whim of the government.

http://www.theagitator.com/2011/12/19/kafka-surrenders/

here’s a ruling from the D.C. Court of Appeals demonstrating just how powerless citizens are when accosted by a police officers—even when the cops themselves are clearly in the wrong. What’s most troubling about the ruling is its mundanity. The law is established here. There’s really nothing to debate. It’s just a matter of the government rattling off the appropriate precedents.

The appellant is Terrance Crossland, who is asking the court to overturn his conviction on two counts of assaulting a police officer. Last April, Crossland and his cousin were approached by two D.C. Metro officers on patrol “to gather information about a rash of recent shootings and drug sales in the area.” Crossland was mowing his grass while smoking a cigarette. The police acknowledge that neither Crossland nor is cousin were doing anything unlawful. The two men were told to turn around, put their hands against a fence, and submit to a search. By both accounts, Crossland initially complied, then said, “Fuck this shit. I’m tired of this.”

Police say Crossland then elbowed one officer in the head, at which point he was punched, taken to the ground, kicked several times, and pepper sprayed. Both the trial court, the appeals court, and even the prosecution acknowledge that because Crossland was doing nothing wrong before the incident, it was illegal for the police to stop, detain, and search him. Nevertheless . . .

. . . as the trial court recognized, the APO statute “prohibits forceful resistance even if the officer’s conduct is unlawful.” Dolson v. United States, 948 A.2d 1193, 1202 (D.C. 2008) (explaining that the rationale for this rule is to “deescalate the potential for violence which exists whenever a police officer encounters an individual in the line of duty”) . . .​

So even if the police illegally stop you, detain you, and beat you, you aren’t permitted to resist. Just roll over and take it. Submit.

But we aren’t done, here. Crossland, backed by more than one witness, denied at trial that he ever threw the alleged elbow that led to his beating. The trial judge didn’t believe him.

The court specifically credited Officer Baldwin’s testimony, noting that it was corroborated by the testimony of Officer Castan. The court explained that it did not credit appellant’s testimony or that of the witnesses he called because “[a]lmost all of them had a bias” and because it was “not credible . . . that the police were out that day, randomly beating people up for no reason” and that even if they were doing that, it made no sense “that they would beat up [appellant], as opposed to Mr. Wo[]mack, whom they had a history with” and had arrested the week before.​

The court also points out that one of the officer could be heard over his radio shouting “Stop resisting,” a phrase that seems to be ingrained in the heads of D.C. Metro cops who want to dish out some punishment.


The notion that the witnesses other than Crossland and his cousin are “biased,” but the cops aren’t, is also dubious. If Crossland didn’t throw an elbow, then he was illegally detained, then searched, beaten, and pepper sprayed for nothing more than mouthing off. That’s more than enough to get beyond qualified immunity in a civil rights lawsuit against the two police officers. So yes, they would have a pretty strong incentive to say Crossland did more than swear at them before they began to beat them.

Most importantly, consider what just happened here. The trial court, the appellate court, and the prosecution all concluded that these two cops broke the law, yet still, all three have deemed that the cops’ testimony is more credible than the testimony of Crossland, his cousin, and the other witnesses—none of whom was doing anything wrong before the confrontation. To be fair, the evidence has to be pretty overwhelming for an appeals court to overturn a trial court on witness credibility. But still. Only one party broke the law before the confrontation. But because that party sports a badge and works for the government, they still get the presumption of credibility over the guy who was minding his own business, his cousin, and the other witnesses.
 
No, you still have a 4th Amendment. But fighting with the cops is not a lawful remedy for a violation of your 4th Amendment rights.
 
freedom is gone. you have none anymore. you will live, die, or be imprisoned at the whim of the government.

http://www.theagitator.com/2011/12/19/kafka-surrenders/

here’s a ruling from the D.C. Court of Appeals demonstrating just how powerless citizens are when accosted by a police officers—even when the cops themselves are clearly in the wrong. What’s most troubling about the ruling is its mundanity. The law is established here. There’s really nothing to debate. It’s just a matter of the government rattling off the appropriate precedents.

The appellant is Terrance Crossland, who is asking the court to overturn his conviction on two counts of assaulting a police officer. Last April, Crossland and his cousin were approached by two D.C. Metro officers on patrol “to gather information about a rash of recent shootings and drug sales in the area.” Crossland was mowing his grass while smoking a cigarette. The police acknowledge that neither Crossland nor is cousin were doing anything unlawful. The two men were told to turn around, put their hands against a fence, and submit to a search. By both accounts, Crossland initially complied, then said, “Fuck this shit. I’m tired of this.”

Police say Crossland then elbowed one officer in the head, at which point he was punched, taken to the ground, kicked several times, and pepper sprayed. Both the trial court, the appeals court, and even the prosecution acknowledge that because Crossland was doing nothing wrong before the incident, it was illegal for the police to stop, detain, and search him. Nevertheless . . .

. . . as the trial court recognized, the APO statute “prohibits forceful resistance even if the officer’s conduct is unlawful.” Dolson v. United States, 948 A.2d 1193, 1202 (D.C. 2008) (explaining that the rationale for this rule is to “deescalate the potential for violence which exists whenever a police officer encounters an individual in the line of duty”) . . .​

So even if the police illegally stop you, detain you, and beat you, you aren’t permitted to resist. Just roll over and take it. Submit.

But we aren’t done, here. Crossland, backed by more than one witness, denied at trial that he ever threw the alleged elbow that led to his beating. The trial judge didn’t believe him.

The court specifically credited Officer Baldwin’s testimony, noting that it was corroborated by the testimony of Officer Castan. The court explained that it did not credit appellant’s testimony or that of the witnesses he called because “[a]lmost all of them had a bias” and because it was “not credible . . . that the police were out that day, randomly beating people up for no reason” and that even if they were doing that, it made no sense “that they would beat up [appellant], as opposed to Mr. Wo[]mack, whom they had a history with” and had arrested the week before.​

The court also points out that one of the officer could be heard over his radio shouting “Stop resisting,” a phrase that seems to be ingrained in the heads of D.C. Metro cops who want to dish out some punishment.


The notion that the witnesses other than Crossland and his cousin are “biased,” but the cops aren’t, is also dubious. If Crossland didn’t throw an elbow, then he was illegally detained, then searched, beaten, and pepper sprayed for nothing more than mouthing off. That’s more than enough to get beyond qualified immunity in a civil rights lawsuit against the two police officers. So yes, they would have a pretty strong incentive to say Crossland did more than swear at them before they began to beat them.

Most importantly, consider what just happened here. The trial court, the appellate court, and the prosecution all concluded that these two cops broke the law, yet still, all three have deemed that the cops’ testimony is more credible than the testimony of Crossland, his cousin, and the other witnesses—none of whom was doing anything wrong before the confrontation. To be fair, the evidence has to be pretty overwhelming for an appeals court to overturn a trial court on witness credibility. But still. Only one party broke the law before the confrontation. But because that party sports a badge and works for the government, they still get the presumption of credibility over the guy who was minding his own business, his cousin, and the other witnesses.
Oh goody....another nit wit who thinks this is a #1 issue.....I wonder what I can do as Republican to convince you to give up your economic opportunities! I know! I'll scare you that LIBUHRALS are gonna take your guns away from yuh! LOL

I mean was I was active as a Republican we used to make this shit up and laughed at your guys while you bought into this shit. It just amazed us that we could convince you that this was more important then being stuck making minimum wage for the rest of your life! LOL LOL LOL

Oh well..lots of patsies out there and if wasn't for ya'll then there wouldn't be nearly as many rich Republicans. :)
 
No, you still have a 4th Amendment. But fighting with the cops is not a lawful remedy for a violation of your 4th Amendment rights.
Shhhhh....be quiet! You trying to ruin a good thing? While he is focused on this me and my Repelican brothers are robbing him blind!!!!
 
Oh goody....another nit wit who thinks this is a #1 issue.....I wonder what I can do as Republican to convince you to give up your economic opportunities! I know! I'll scare you that LIBUHRALS are gonna take your guns away from yuh! LOL

I mean was I was active as a Republican we used to make this shit up and laughed at your guys while you bought into this shit. It just amazed us that we could convince you that this was more important then being stuck making minimum wage for the rest of your life! LOL LOL LOL

Oh well..lots of patsies out there and if wasn't for ya'll then there wouldn't be nearly as many rich Republicans. :)

drinking already today? because i'd like you to show me where in my post here I made reference to liberals or republicans.

If you would care to pull your head out of your ass now, can you address the OP sanely?
 
drinking already today? because i'd like you to show me where in my post here I made reference to liberals or republicans.

If you would care to pull your head out of your ass now, can you address the OP sanely?
Naaaa just having fun. I mean when I was an active Republican and attended party meetings this is what we used to laugh about. How we manipulated rural and blue collar Americans with these wedge issues to distract you from the fact that we were selling you down the river for a buck. Eventually I realized that if they could do it to you....they could, would (and did) do it to me as well.

If you give these sort of issues your priority don't be surprized if you make $10 an hour or less for the rest of your life.
 
Naaaa just having fun. I mean when I was an active Republican and attended party meetings this is what we used to laugh about. How we manipulated rural and blue collar Americans with these wedge issues to distract you from the fact that we were selling you down the river for a buck. Eventually I realized that if they could do it to you....they could, would (and did) do it to me as well.

If you give these sort of issues your priority don't be surprized if you make $10 an hour or less for the rest of your life.

so basically what you're trying to say is that everyone should stfu and be a good little slave, do whatver the nice policeman who's fucking you in the ass says, and go back to work afterward?
 
let me guess, you also agreed that the victim should endure the sexual assault by the cop and just file a civil complaint afterward?


Not sure what you are talking about, but as a general matter, no, I do not agree that a victim should endure sexual assault by a cop and file a civil complaint afterward. That's not what this case is about. I was commenting on this case. The trial judge found that the guy elbowed a cop in the head. The appeals court has to accept that finding as true. Elbowing a cop in the head is not a proper remedy for a civil rights violation.

I'm sympathetic to the view that only people that are actually guilty have a significant remedy for violations of their 4th Amendment rights, but at the same time I don't think that fighting with the cops is (1) smart or (2) a good remedy.
 
Naaaa just having fun. I mean when I was an active Republican and attended party meetings this is what we used to laugh about. How we manipulated rural and blue collar Americans with these wedge issues to distract you from the fact that we were selling you down the river for a buck. Eventually I realized that if they could do it to you....they could, would (and did) do it to me as well.

If you give these sort of issues your priority don't be surprized if you make $10 an hour or less for the rest of your life.

Yeah, precedent to be illegally detained and assualted coupled with the now legal ability to so for unlimited amounts of time (NDAA), and having prosecuters and police bein completely immune from any sort of criminal convictoin, during a time of massive expansion of police powers and brutality, just isn't a good issue when I can't sell my home for a profit, or have to take a tax increase to pay for this unwarranted abuse of power.

I mean, I know you agreed with the OWS movement, but when the police came and routinely beat the protesters, that's just the nature of the justice system at work, right?
 
so basically what you're trying to say is that everyone should stfu and be a good little slave, do whatver the nice policeman who's fucking you in the ass says, and go back to work afterward?
No. I'm saying that party Republicans, and I include myself when I was one, who actually work at the grass roots level crafting political messages on these sort of wedge issues to get rural and blue collar types to obsess on these instead of economic issues. Then we would very cynically laugh our asses off at you as fools while you focused on this shit and we, in turn, sent your jobs to Mexico and SE Asia and lowered tax rates so that they could no longer support maintaining infrastructure and education and social entitlements for your retirment and health care as a senior or be able to own a home, etc, etc.

So goodness, please don't be a good little slave and please focus on this and gun rights and abortion and gay marriage so that we can keep right on laughing at you all the way to the bank. :)
 
let me guess, you also agreed that the victim should endure the sexual assault by the cop and just file a civil complaint afterward?

I think that "sexual assault" could take several forms and a cop making a suggestive remark does not entail somebody to pick up a chair and smash them over the head with it. I will admit that if a cop trys to rememdy his loneliness with me, somebody is going to end up hurt. I dont think their is a good answer here. There are reasons that attacking the police even when they are outside their rights is not a good idea. However, just registering a complaint afterwards is a piss poor solution to a cop weighing into you with a club.
 
Not sure what you are talking about, but as a general matter, no, I do not agree that a victim should endure sexual assault by a cop and file a civil complaint afterward. That's not what this case is about. I was commenting on this case. The trial judge found that the guy elbowed a cop in the head. The appeals court has to accept that finding as true. Elbowing a cop in the head is not a proper remedy for a civil rights violation.

I'm sympathetic to the view that only people that are actually guilty have a significant remedy for violations of their 4th Amendment rights, but at the same time I don't think that fighting with the cops is (1) smart or (2) a good remedy.

http://www.justplainpolitics.com/showthread.php?36780-no-right-to-resist-being-raped-by-a-cop

now, with regards to this case......the trial judge dismissed the victim and witnesses testimony as biased, yet blindly accepted the testimony of two cops that the judge acknowledged had violated the law and this guys rights, so are you sure about not agreeing that the victim must endure the assault and file a complaint afterward? even knowing that IA will most likely find the same results as the trial judge?
 
No. I'm saying that party Republicans, and I include myself when I was one, who actually work at the grass roots level crafting political messages on these sort of wedge issues to get rural and blue collar types to obsess on these instead of economic issues. Then we would very cynically laugh our asses off at you as fools while you focused on this shit and we, in turn, sent your jobs to Mexico and SE Asia and lowered tax rates so that they could no longer support maintaining infrastructure and education and social entitlements for your retirment and health care as a senior or be able to own a home, etc, etc.

So goodness, please don't be a good little slave and please focus on this and gun rights and abortion and gay marriage so that we can keep right on laughing at you all the way to the bank. :)
so you're saying I should forget all about the constitution for now and focus on protesting wall street. what should I do when the police start beating me there?
 
I think that "sexual assault" could take several forms and a cop making a suggestive remark does not entail somebody to pick up a chair and smash them over the head with it. I will admit that if a cop trys to rememdy his loneliness with me, somebody is going to end up hurt. I dont think their is a good answer here. There are reasons that attacking the police even when they are outside their rights is not a good idea. However, just registering a complaint afterwards is a piss poor solution to a cop weighing into you with a club.
then what would you recommend?
 
http://www.justplainpolitics.com/showthread.php?36780-no-right-to-resist-being-raped-by-a-cop

now, with regards to this case......the trial judge dismissed the victim and witnesses testimony as biased, yet blindly accepted the testimony of two cops that the judge acknowledged had violated the law and this guys rights, so are you sure about not agreeing that the victim must endure the assault and file a complaint afterward? even knowing that IA will most likely find the same results as the trial judge?


First, the defendant opted for a bench trial. Second, the finder of fact (in this case the judge, in most cases the jury) has to decide what happened. Here, the judge decided that the events happened as the cops said they did. Once that finding is made, the conclusion is obvious and the appeals court can't do squat about it. Third, I don't think questioning and a pat down by a cop qualifies as "assault."

Like I said, I think it is problematic that the only remedy that an innocent person has for a violation of the 4th Amendment is a civil case or complaining to the police.
 
First, the defendant opted for a bench trial. Second, the finder of fact (in this case the judge, in most cases the jury) has to decide what happened. Here, the judge decided that the events happened as the cops said they did. Once that finding is made, the conclusion is obvious and the appeals court can't do squat about it. Third, I don't think questioning and a pat down by a cop qualifies as "assault."

Like I said, I think it is problematic that the only remedy that an innocent person has for a violation of the 4th Amendment is a civil case or complaining to the police.

here's where I have issue with your opinion. YOU may not consider orders to place your hands on a wall and endure a search as an 'assault', yet when a person is just mowing his lawn, the police have no probable cause or reasonable suspicion to stop you from what you are doing. By YOU disregarding this persons constitutional rights to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures, YOU are giving police carte blanche to stop and search anyone for anything.

the defendant most likely opted for the bench trial thinking that the judge would know his rights much better than a jury of his peers, obviously neither of them care about his rights, only what police officers do to keep them safe, so his bad.

I believe we have a very serious disconnect in this country now, where are rights are judged willy nilly by judges whose apparent motivation is protecting the servants of the government. how do you feel about that?
 
Such as...? I mean, if I can defend myself from a mugger, why then can I not defend myself from a overzealous ad completely wrong police officer?
ooh, ooh, ooh, I have the answer to that!!!!!

qualified immunity and laws that make assaulting police officers a felony, whether the actions of said police officer is lawful or unlawful.. oh, and deadly force is part of police department policies, so they can kill you and get away with it by saying they feared for their life.
 
Such as...? I mean, if I can defend myself from a mugger, why then can I not defend myself from a overzealous ad completely wrong police officer?

They didn't say you could not attack, they just sails it wasn't a good idea. I would hate to be in the situation, it is very hard to prove a cop is in the wrong. The system is heavily weighted in the ops favor, it is wrong, but it is fact.
 
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