Wow...

Onceler said:
Wow - you sound just like O'Reilly.

So, the prejudice against Jews isn't based on anything "they" have done, but prejudice against Muslims IS based on something "they" have done?

Don't you hear how that sounds? This is where just about everyone is losing me on this topic, and I realize I'm in the minority. The bottom line is this: all it takes is a small group of extremists to impugn an entire group, no matter how big that group is.

I don't see Christians as being potentially violent because of the KKK...do you?

I agree that it's not bigoted in the same way as a hate group's ideals, but you can't argue that it's not prejudiced. It would be impossible to do so.
Click to expand...

I did NOT say it was based on something that (the nebulus) "they" have done. I said it is rooted in an actual event, as is the prejudice that Jackson showed in his statement. I also said that the generalization of that fear is irrational. But it makes it no less a fear. My bet is, it is a fear held by a great many Americans. So far we have not let our fear of Muslims run amok to the point that we are talking about building camps in the California desert and housing them there. The real problem here is anytime anyone voices any irrational fear against an entire group because of the actions of a small subset of that group we immediately catagorize them as racist, and that word stops our conversation. There is no way to overcome that accusation. It is designed to stop all discussion. There is a difference between saying I don't trust Muslims because of 9-11 and saying that black people are inherently inferior to white people. But when you say that someone is a racist for voicing a fear, no matter that it is irrational, you kill any further discussion of the issue and people that hold that fear don't say anything and continue to hold on to it. Merely dismissing it as racist does a greater disservice to society in general.
 
Onceler said:
Wow - you sound just like O'Reilly.

So, the prejudice against Jews isn't based on anything "they" have done, but prejudice against Muslims IS based on something "they" have done?

Don't you hear how that sounds? This is where just about everyone is losing me on this topic, and I realize I'm in the minority. The bottom line is this: all it takes is a small group of extremists to impugn an entire group, no matter how big that group is.

I don't see Christians as being potentially violent because of the KKK...do you?

I agree that it's not bigoted in the same way as a hate group's ideals, but you can't argue that it's not prejudiced. It would be impossible to do so.
Click to expand...

No, but if I see Christians dressing up in white robes near a large wooden cross in a field I am going to be nervous... and I am white.

Likewise, a person dressed in Muslim garb is not going to be of much concern to me in most situations, but I am likely to be a bit more suspicious if they board a plane in such attire. I don't think it is bigoted to have that feeling in that situation.

At the same time, a person of middle eastern decent who boards a plane in a business suit or jeans and a t-shirt is not going to cause the same response.
 
Superfreak said:
No, but if I see Christians dressing up in white robes near a large wooden cross in a field I am going to be nervous... and I am white.

Likewise, a person dressed in Muslim garb is not going to be of much concern to me in most situations, but I am likely to be a bit more suspicious if they board a plane in such attire. I don't think it is bigoted to have that feeling in that situation.

At the same time, a person of middle eastern decent who boards a plane in a business suit or jeans and a t-shirt is not going to cause the same response.
Click to expand...
Actually I don't think that someone with bad intentions would board a plane dressed in traditional clothing. The hijackers were not dressed like that, they were dressed to blend in, jeans, shirts the normal everyday clothing of the american public. I can see people being afraid of the person in the traditional clothing, but again, I think it has more to do with the irrational nature of the fear and our "psychologically" dressing them in their costume that lets us single them out.
 
Socrtease said:
Jesse experienced little if any fallout for this statement. He was not ostrasized by the left for it and I imagine lots of other people outright agreed with him. I don't care that NPR fired him, that is not my beef here. My beef is, the left completely supports this decision and gave Jesse little if any flack about his comment. Honestly, I don't think he deserved any, but the hipocracy on the left sometimes is as stunning as it is on the right, and the left tries so much harder than the right to portray themselves as more understanding and tollerant of opinions. I am not talking about blatantly racist statements, because neither Williams or Jacksons statements were blatantly racist. They were from the same place as people that have irrational fears of dogs, flying on airplanes or spiders. It's just that we don't allow people to give voice to this sort of thing because we have embraced a PC attitude that silences discussion on issues that are "out of bounds". Not cool to say you are afraid of black men or Muslims, but much more acceptable to say you are afraid of men in general. I think that we should embrace these kind of discussions because then both sides can talk about it and MOST people will come to some healthy middle ground about their own fears.
Click to expand...


First of all, not all of "the left" supports NPR. I know it makes it easier for you to demagogue if you pretend otherwise, but get you head out of your ass.

Second, I really don't remember what the reaction was 11 years ago when Jesse Jackson made that comment. I'm guessing you have no fucking idea either but your memory was helpfully refreshed by some right-wing jackass comparing what Jesse said to what Juan said.

Third, it's fine to talk about our prejudices. But if you go on television and start talking about how afraid you are of Muslims and that it bothers you when Muslims identify as Muslims, your employer doesn't have keep you. And, Juan Williams is supposed to be an unbiased and objective journalist.
 
Superfreak said:
No, but if I see Christians dressing up in white robes near a large wooden cross in a field I am going to be nervous... and I am white.

Likewise, a person dressed in Muslim garb is not going to be of much concern to me in most situations, but I am likely to be a bit more suspicious if they board a plane in such attire. I don't think it is bigoted to have that feeling in that situation.

At the same time, a person of middle eastern decent who boards a plane in a business suit or jeans and a t-shirt is not going to cause the same response.
Click to expand...


First, it is bigoted. You may think it's justified, but it's bigoted. It's also stupid. Terrorists try to blend in, not to stick out.
 
Superfreak said:
No, but if I see Christians dressing up in white robes near a large wooden cross in a field I am going to be nervous... and I am white.

Likewise, a person dressed in Muslim garb is not going to be of much concern to me in most situations, but I am likely to be a bit more suspicious if they board a plane in such attire. I don't think it is bigoted to have that feeling in that situation.

At the same time, a person of middle eastern decent who boards a plane in a business suit or jeans and a t-shirt is not going to cause the same response.
Click to expand...

So...what you're saying is that the hijackers were dressed in Muslim garb, basically.

They weren't.

Wanna try again?
 
Socrtease said:
I did NOT say it was based on something that (the nebulus) "they" have done. I said it is rooted in an actual event, as is the prejudice that Jackson showed in his statement. I also said that the generalization of that fear is irrational. But it makes it no less a fear. My bet is, it is a fear held by a great many Americans. So far we have not let our fear of Muslims run amok to the point that we are talking about building camps in the California desert and housing them there. The real problem here is anytime anyone voices any irrational fear against an entire group because of the actions of a small subset of that group we immediately catagorize them as racist, and that word stops our conversation. There is no way to overcome that accusation. It is designed to stop all discussion. There is a difference between saying I don't trust Muslims because of 9-11 and saying that black people are inherently inferior to white people. But when you say that someone is a racist for voicing a fear, no matter that it is irrational, you kill any further discussion of the issue and people that hold that fear don't say anything and continue to hold on to it. Merely dismissing it as racist does a greater disservice to society in general.
Click to expand...

When you say it's rooted in an actual event, it's pretty much the exact same thing as saying it's something "they" have done. I really don't see the distinction there.

And yes, it's based in fear. All prejudice is.
 
NigelTufnel said:
First of all, not all of "the left" supports NPR. I know it makes it easier for you to demagogue if you pretend otherwise, but get you head out of your ass.

Second, I really don't remember what the reaction was 11 years ago when Jesse Jackson made that comment. I'm guessing you have no fucking idea either but your memory was helpfully refreshed by some right-wing jackass comparing what Jesse said to what Juan said.

Third, it's fine to talk about our prejudices. But if you go on television and start talking about how afraid you are of Muslims and that it bothers you when Muslims identify as Muslims, your employer doesn't have keep you. And, Juan Williams is supposed to be an unbiased and objective journalist.
Click to expand...
First off, I have watched NO television coverage of this, nor have I read anything outside of this. My comparison of this event to Jesse Jackson was my own. I remember the event. Some of us actually have memories that can contain facts from history that happened longer than one election cycle ago. When I first mentioned the Jackson event, I improperly said that he said he was glad the person was not black when if fact he said he was glad their were white. So while I remembered the event I did not get it exactly right. Had I been fed the story from some right wing pundit they would have done a better job of researching it before they fed it to me. Your condensending attitude is refresing though. I find it funny that you would accuse me of having my memory refreshed by some right winger when you are one of the largest left wing parrots on this board. If you have EVER read any other posts of mine on this board you will notice that on the issue of racism, I am usually on the side that gets accused of playing the race card. I am very rarely ever on the same side of a race issue as those on the right on this board. However, I am tired of the left wing in this country resorting to shouting racist to squelch debate. Anyone that comes to Williams aid, and at least indicates an understanding of WHY he said what he said is shouted down like he just put on a David Duke t-shirt and wears a hat that says "Hitler had the right idea". People can have prejudices without being racist. The left has adopted the old right wing tactic of the 50's and 60's of accusing anyone with liberal ideas as being a communist, hell it's a new right wing tactic, only now the accusation is "socialist". The entire T Party suffers from this tactic. Because there have been a small number of mouthbreathing bigots at T Party rallies, the left has painted with a broad brush, hell a roller, and has labeled the whole party racist. No difference, because a few have said racist thing "they" are all racist. Pot meet kettle.
 
NigelTufnel said:
First of all, not all of "the left" supports NPR. I know it makes it easier for you to demagogue if you pretend otherwise, but get you head out of your ass.

Second, I really don't remember what the reaction was 11 years ago when Jesse Jackson made that comment. I'm guessing you have no fucking idea either but your memory was helpfully refreshed by some right-wing jackass comparing what Jesse said to what Juan said.

Third, it's fine to talk about our prejudices. But if you go on television and start talking about how afraid you are of Muslims and that it bothers you when Muslims identify as Muslims, your employer doesn't have keep you. And, Juan Williams is supposed to be an unbiased and objective journalist.
Click to expand...

You are suck a fucking hack.

So because YOU don't remember Jackson's comments, that means that anyone who brings it up got a talking point from some right wing 'jackass'????

You are pathetic.
 
Socrtease said:
First off, I have watched NO television coverage of this, nor have I read anything outside of this. My comparison of this event to Jesse Jackson was my own. I remember the event. Some of us actually have memories that can contain facts from history that happened longer than one election cycle ago. When I first mentioned the Jackson event, I improperly said that he said he was glad the person was not black when if fact he said he was glad their were white. So while I remembered the event I did not get it exactly right. Had I been fed the story from some right wing pundit they would have done a better job of researching it before they fed it to me. Your condensending attitude is refresing though. I find it funny that you would accuse me of having my memory refreshed by some right winger when you are one of the largest left wing parrots on this board. If you have EVER read any other posts of mine on this board you will notice that on the issue of racism, I am usually on the side that gets accused of playing the race card. I am very rarely ever on the same side of a race issue as those on the right on this board. However, I am tired of the left wing in this country resorting to shouting racist to squelch debate. Anyone that comes to Williams aid, and at least indicates an understanding of WHY he said what he said is shouted down like he just put on a David Duke t-shirt and wears a hat that says "Hitler had the right idea". People can have prejudices without being racist. The left has adopted the old right wing tactic of the 50's and 60's of accusing anyone with liberal ideas as being a communist, hell it's a new right wing tactic, only now the accusation is "socialist". The entire T Party suffers from this tactic. Because there have been a small number of mouthbreathing bigots at T Party rallies, the left has painted with a broad brush, hell a roller, and has labeled the whole party racist. No difference, because a few have said racist thing "they" are all racist. Pot meet kettle.
Click to expand...


Well, I think you're full of shit.

And, again, your railing against "the left" is pretty fucking stupid, particularly where there are plenty of people on the left that think NPR fucked up here.
 
NigelTufnel said:
Well, I think you're full of shit.

And, again, your railing against "the left" is pretty fucking stupid, particularly where there are plenty of people on the left that think NPR fucked up here.
Click to expand...
Interesting, when a minority of Muslims do something it does not reflect on all Muslims, but when a minority of lefties defend Williams then the whole of the left is saved. You have a real logical disconnect.
 
Socrtease said:
Interesting, when a minority of Muslims do something it does not reflect on all Muslims, but when a minority of lefties defend Williams then the whole of the left is saved. You have a real logical disconnect.
Click to expand...


You're the jackass treating "the left" as monolithic, not me. If you think treating "the left" as a homogeneous, monolithic entity is honest, go for it. Me, I think it's fucking stupid.
 
Superfreak said:
same thing... when in doubt... just drop the 'u a racist' or 'u a bigot' phrase.

Just exactly what you are doing.... and yes, it is indeed stupid to do so... just keeping things on a level you can understand.
Click to expand...


Dude, you said that a person's mode of dress that indicates the persons religion makes you nervous. That's bigoted. I don't think you're a racist or a bigot as a general matter, but that's a bigoted thing to think. And there isn't really much doubt about.

If it makes you feel better, Jesse Jackson's comments were bigoted, too. So was Juan Williams's comment. I don't think either of those guys are bigots, though.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top