Will Hamas tunnels in Gaza make a difference?

ExpressLane said:
I'd use a non toxic marker gas then I'd just blow up every entrance that they find and and seal them all in there with no lights and no source for air.
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That wont work because they would know what is up and leave, all that would need to be done to keep the gas from coming up through an entrance is close them off, and the entrances are surely often in buildings which would be hard to find.
 
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QP! said:
Yup.

First time agreeing with you but this is correct.

If not for the hostages, they would flood them or just seal every entrance they found with everyone inside.

Now instead they will be forced to march almost single file for miles down unknown long tunnels where the enemy knows the ambush points. One man can beat a thousand men, if the thousand are forced to march single file towards him and he has good shielding and good weapons and the ones approaching have no where to go.
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My bet is the Israelis already have shaped line charges and the equivalent of bangalore torpedoes ready to go to take these tunnels down. You find one, push this explosive charge down the length of it, then detonate and collapse the entirety of the tunnel for up to say 100+ yards or more at a shot. You could send a small RPV to pull the charge along while exploring the tunnel. If it gets ambushed, so what? Detonate the explosive charge, problem solved. Every bit of tunnel between you and them is gone, you advance on the surface and do it again.
 
T. A. Gardner said:
Will Hamas tunnels in Gaza make a difference? I don't think so.
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They already have.

How successful the tunnels are during an invasion depends on how good tunnel detection technology has gotten. We will not know until that actually is all tested.

T. A. Gardner said:
Remember from history, the Maginot Line didn't make much of a difference in 1940.
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The Maginot Line forced the Germans to go around the Maginot Line. The Germans had no way to defeat it straight on. Had the French understood modern warfare, they would have easily defeated the Germans. Had the Germans better understood modern warfare, they would have completely defeated the British Expeditionary Force.
 
Walt said:
They already have.

How successful the tunnels are during an invasion depends on how good tunnel detection technology has gotten. We will not know until that actually is all tested.



The Maginot Line forced the Germans to go around the Maginot Line. The Germans had no way to defeat it straight on. Had the French understood modern warfare, they would have easily defeated the Germans. Had the Germans better understood modern warfare, they would have completely defeated the British Expeditionary Force.
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The Germans also defeated large chunks of the line too. They did so by studying it and coming up with ways to defeat it. One of the most effective was this:

cloche_gfm2.jpg


A key part of the line's effectiveness were cloches like the one shown. These contained machineguns and observation posts that prevented infantry from getting close to the fortifications and to direct the artillery fire of the line. They were virtually immune to artillery fire. However, they were highly vulnerable to direct, precision fire from guns like the German 8.8cm Flak gun. Once taken out by such fire the fortress was blind and could easily be defeated.

Gaza's tunnels are the same way. Once the Israelis find one, they can send a ROV down it towing a linear charge. The ROV gives the Israelis information about the tunnel and where it goes. When it reaches a point where defenders open up on it, the Israelis simply detonate their charge(s), drop the tunnel to that point rendering it useless, and then move forward above ground to that point and repeat the process.
 
Bigdog said:
I like the current guerilla hit and run tactics they're using.

They will have to be meticulous with the tunnels. It will slow them down some, but time is on the Israeli's side.
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I don't know whether time really is on Israel's side. Every day they have to hang around in a densely crowded city, they are taking casualties, and inflicting casualties against civilians. This is a far more difficult situation than many Americans seem to understand.

Even if you kill most of Hamas, Netanyahu has intentionally left a void in Gaza. That just makes the void worse. There does not appear to be any reasonable group willing to fill that void. That means that we are left with "Hamas jr." next years.
 
T. A. Gardner said:
The Germans also defeated large chunks of the line too.
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They only made a frontal attack on a few small forts on the side. The rest of the line was defeated from the rear. The Maginot Line was made not to be defendable from the back. During WWI, many French lost their lives trying to retake French fortifications.

There is no reason to believe the Maginot Line would fall to a direct attack, and the Germans did not try. The Maginot Line worked for what it was intended to do.

T. A. Gardner said:
Gaza's tunnels are the same way. Once the Israelis find one, they can send a ROV down it towing a linear charge. The ROV gives the Israelis information about the tunnel and where it goes. When it reaches a point where defenders open up on it, the Israelis simply detonate their charge(s), drop the tunnel to that point rendering it useless, and then move forward above ground to that point and repeat the process.
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It all depends on whether the IDF knows where the tunnels are. There is technology that might be able to map out the tunnels perfectly, but it is completely untested. Even the entrances might be known, or they may not be.

Nothing about this is simple or known.
 
Walt said:
They only made a frontal attack on a few small forts on the side. The rest of the line was defeated from the rear. The Maginot Line was made not to be defendable from the back. During WWI, many French lost their lives trying to retake French fortifications.

There is no reason to believe the Maginot Line would fall to a direct attack, and the Germans did not try. The Maginot Line worked for what it was intended to do.



It all depends on whether the IDF knows where the tunnels are. There is technology that might be able to map out the tunnels perfectly, but it is completely untested. Even the entrances might be known, or they may not be.

Nothing about this is simple or known.
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Nonsense. The Germans overran the entirety of the Rhine defenses and took out a number of petite ouvrages along with many of the forward positions. The few gros ouvrages in the line did hold out. The Germans also wiped out the Belgian fortress system around Liege, most notably taking Eben Emael in a glider assault using less than 100 combat engineers.
 
Walt said:
I don't know whether time really is on Israel's side. Every day they have to hang around in a densely crowded city, they are taking casualties, and inflicting casualties against civilians. This is a far more difficult situation than many Americans seem to understand.

Even if you kill most of Hamas, Netanyahu has intentionally left a void in Gaza. That just makes the void worse. There does not appear to be any reasonable group willing to fill that void. That means that we are left with "Hamas jr." next years.
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Hit and run. Gather intel from response. Repeat.
Find a tunnel, do the same thing.
Try not to create a stationary target for too long.
Israel can take their time and be meticulous with hit and run tactics.
 
Bigdog said:
Hit and run. Gather intel from response. Repeat.
Find a tunnel, do the same thing.
Try not to create a stationary target for too long.
Israel can take their time and be meticulous with hit and run tactics.
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Hamas knows where its tunnels are, so knows where Israel would hit. They can easily hit any target in Gaza in second, so can create injuries. Injuries take time to clear, which gives them time to create more injuries.

I know this all seems easy to you, but the reality is probably a mess.
 
T. A. Gardner said:
Nonsense. The Germans overran the entirety of the Rhine defenses and took out a number of petite ouvrages along with many of the forward positions. The few gros ouvrages in the line did hold out. The Germans also wiped out the Belgian fortress system around Liege, most notably taking Eben Emael in a glider assault using less than 100 combat engineers.
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If the Germans had overrun the Maginot Line, the French would have retreated towards Paris, and like WWI, the Germans would not have been able to take Paris. The whole point of an hammer anvil strategy is not to move the anvil.
 
T. A. Gardner said:
My bet is the Israelis already have shaped line charges and the equivalent of bangalore torpedoes ready to go to take these tunnels down. You find one, push this explosive charge down the length of it, then detonate and collapse the entirety of the tunnel for up to say 100+ yards or more at a shot. You could send a small RPV to pull the charge along while exploring the tunnel. If it gets ambushed, so what? Detonate the explosive charge, problem solved. Every bit of tunnel between you and them is gone, you advance on the surface and do it again.
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If they do that, they will find hostages very quickly placed at the fore and dead when they return back in. each and every progression will come at the expense of hostages.

I think your other idea of RPV and drones will be key. Send drones first down the length of any tunnel, looking for secret gunner holes who can shoot 'fish in a barrel' once the soldiers enter the long runs. BE patient with the drones map everything with infra red and then allow the soldiers to progress.

I also think non lethal gas could be key. The Israelis will have good supply lines, and Hamas not so much. Make them use what they got (gas cartridges) and then hit them again.
 
Walt said:
Hamas knows where its tunnels are, so knows where Israel would hit. They can easily hit any target in Gaza in second, so can create injuries. Injuries take time to clear, which gives them time to create more injuries.

I know this all seems easy to you, but the reality is probably a mess.
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Of course, it's NOT easy. Israel is aware of all that. They have step by step procedures to minimize casualties.
 
Bigdog said:
Of course, it's NOT easy. Israel is aware of all that. They have step by step procedures to minimize casualties.
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If you have a step by step procedure, the enemy will learn it, and figure out how to defeat it. The point is that both sides have human intelligence, and are working to advance their strategy.

The IDF is going in with an untested strategy, and untested technology, so it might go very well, or it might go very badly. Even if it goes very well, those strategies will start to be counteracted, and over time it will start going badly.

The worst part of all this is I do not see anyone willing to fill the void. There is no reasonable group willing to occupy Gaza, and provide civil services for Gaza.

This is a very bad situation.
 
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