Why Libs Oppose Consumer-based Taxes

The 'Fair Tax' is certainly better than our current system, but it is still regressive in nature. It would also likely lead to black market formation. The flat tax with a high standard deduction is a far better system. It too would eliminate all the loopholes and deductions, but it would be simple, PROGRESSIVE and truly 'FAIR'.


But we have "black markets" now, don't we? Aren't a good many people out there, doing work 'under the table' and not paying income tax? It's not 'regressive' in nature, a provision is made to supplement lower income families for any fair tax they will pay on basic needs. But let's return to the idea this system would 'lead to black markets' or people would cheat the system... well, with the current system, it takes one individual to cheat, you make the decision you aren't going to pay your taxes, and that's what you do... it was solely your choice... Now, with a Fair Tax system, you would need TWO parties to cheat. The tax payer and the tax receiver. It's much more difficult to cheat when you need two parties in order to pull it off. Not saying it couldn't be done, but I don't see where it would be easier than it currently is to cheat the system.
 
The 'Fair Tax' is certainly better than our current system, but it is still regressive in nature. It would also likely lead to black market formation. The flat tax with a high standard deduction is a far better system. It too would eliminate all the loopholes and deductions, but it would be simple, PROGRESSIVE and truly 'FAIR'.

There is nothing fair about income tax.

Any kind of income tax.

The fair tax says that we will keep growing government to Americas demise.

No different than what we have now.
 
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Hmmm.... by "hoarding" do you mean... saving? Money is still of value whether it is spent or saved, I don't understand your logic. If they sell their product here, we collect a 23% tax on it, so that's exactly what we want them to do...sell their product here. They can spend their money wherever, just like they can do that now... no difference, you admit that yourself. With the Fair Tax, there would be no "tax loophole" because we are no longer taxing income, we are taxing consumption. We have an abundance of that in America.

My logic is unless the money is spent here we do not realize the tax. Whether it's a corporation paying shareholders/investors in other countries or wealthy people taking vacations, buying property and spending money out of country the tax is lost. A consumption tax works under the assumption all the money a person receives will be spent here. The wealthier the person the less likely that will be the case as they travel more and, therefore, purchase and consume products from which we do not receive taxes.

Also, taxing income only would get rid of the discrepancy we now have with different tax rates on different products and services. For example, the tax on gas and liquor and hotel rooms. Then there's the luxury tax. Once a tax is paid on income it shouldn't matter what the person spends their money on.
 
My logic is unless the money is spent here we do not realize the tax. Whether it's a corporation paying shareholders/investors in other countries or wealthy people taking vacations, buying property and spending money out of country the tax is lost. A consumption tax works under the assumption all the money a person receives will be spent here. The wealthier the person the less likely that will be the case as they travel more and, therefore, purchase and consume products from which we do not receive taxes.

Also, taxing income only would get rid of the discrepancy we now have with different tax rates on different products and services. For example, the tax on gas and liquor and hotel rooms. Then there's the luxury tax. Once a tax is paid on income it shouldn't matter what the person spends their money on.

I don't even understand this incoherence. Apple, we currently have an income tax, and it hasn't gotten rid of liquor tax or hotel tax, in fact, most of those taxes came about after the income tax. As for you argument about people spending money outside the US... they already do! Why do we keep getting examples of things that are already happening now, as a reason we shouldn't do this? It makes no logical sense. How can you even imagine someone who lives in the US, spending ALL their money elsewhere? How did they get there? Didn't they have to purchase a plane ticket in the US? And how much of this money is actual taxable income we would have normally collected an income tax on, versus money from a trust or savings, which would have never been 'income taxed' anyway?

If you live here and earn your income here, you can't help but to spend money here. If you're rich and want to buy your groceries in Switzerland instead of here, you still have to fill up the G-5 and pay a pilot in the US, so you are still going to pay the tax, and your money is going to make its way to others who will also pay the tax. Keep in mind, this is likely old money that has long-ago been income taxed, can't be taxed again as income, but can be taxed when spent.

Your whole argument sounds like something a 14-year-old came up with in about 3 minutes, after thinking of how to logically refute a 'consumption' tax. It has no basis in reality, it's not how things would be, it's a silly and ridiculous speculation, based on nothing more than your stubborn refusal to accept a good idea.
 
But we have "black markets" now, don't we? Aren't a good many people out there, doing work 'under the table' and not paying income tax? It's not 'regressive' in nature, a provision is made to supplement lower income families for any fair tax they will pay on basic needs. But let's return to the idea this system would 'lead to black markets' or people would cheat the system... well, with the current system, it takes one individual to cheat, you make the decision you aren't going to pay your taxes, and that's what you do... it was solely your choice... Now, with a Fair Tax system, you would need TWO parties to cheat. The tax payer and the tax receiver. It's much more difficult to cheat when you need two parties in order to pull it off. Not saying it couldn't be done, but I don't see where it would be easier than it currently is to cheat the system.

Is there insider trading on wallstreet?
 
OK, please explain to me how any "flat tax" can be "progressive". That rather defies logic.

You are seriously retarded. I have stated it 100 times.... but I will be happy to repeat it .... but do pay attention this time... for starters, I stated flat tax with a standard deduction....

Let us push for the flat tax with a standard deduction and nothing more.

Start with a standard deduction of $30k (adjusted for inflation annually) for each adult and then tax every dollar over that $30k at 20%. This is simple, easy to understand, fair and progressive. It protects the low-income individuals and couples from paying federal income taxes. It provides the middle-income families a lower effective tax rate than the wealthy. This plan would encompass ALL income, including earned income, capital gains and dividend income.

A person making $30k pays an effective rate of 0%.

A person making $50k pays an effective rate of 8%.

A person making $100k pays an effective rate of 14%.

A person making $200k pays en effective rate of 17%.

A person making $1mm pays an effective rate of 19.4%

Everyone has the same deduction and takes it. Which causes the effective tax rate to increase the more you make.
 
I have seen it over and over and over again. It's a ponzi scheme that shift the burden of taxation onto the middle and professional classes. The poor and working classes all ready pay little in federal income taxes. Accurding to who's analysis? The Hoover Institute?

97% of the federal income taxes are paid by the top 50% of income earners. The source that all of the reports cite is the Internal Revenue Service.

http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html
 
No the reason that they don't like the fair tax is because it's intrinsicly unfair and it shift the burdon of taxation from those who control most of the money onto those who don't. Unless you make well above $200,000/year you'd have to be an idiot of the greatest magnitude to support regressive taxation schemcse such as "The Fair Tax".

That's not fair.

At all.

Your support of slavery is noted.
 
No the reason that they don't like the fair tax is because it's intrinsicly unfair and it shift the burdon of taxation from those who control most of the money onto those who don't.

I wanted to comment on this particular talking point from liberals... Money is not "controlled" by anyone. Money is used to buy things, money is made when things are sold, people EARN money by performing various things called "JOBS" ....Money is the reward given for the time devoted to a "JOB."

People who have a lot of money, are not "controlling" something that we all own, they aren't "controlling" something that belongs to you or someone else, it is their property, they OWN the money, it belongs to them, they don't "control" anything. I have heard this stupidity 'til I am sick of it, and no one ever seems to call you people on your rhetoric. It's not OUR money, and they are "in control" of it! It's THEIR money, it is THEIR property, and you don't have ANY right to it, whether to "control" it or anything else, it doesn't belong to YOU!
 
I wanted to comment on this particular talking point from liberals... Money is not "controlled" by anyone. Money is used to buy things, money is made when things are sold, people EARN money by performing various things called "JOBS" ....Money is the reward given for the time devoted to a "JOB."

People who have a lot of money, are not "controlling" something that we all own, they aren't "controlling" something that belongs to you or someone else, it is their property, they OWN the money, it belongs to them, they don't "control" anything. I have heard this stupidity 'til I am sick of it, and no one ever seems to call you people on your rhetoric. It's not OUR money, and they are "in control" of it! It's THEIR money, it is THEIR property, and you don't have ANY right to it, whether to "control" it or anything else, it doesn't belong to YOU!

Money definitely is used to control things. Ask the financiers. Then stop being a douchebag.



"Permit me to issue and control the money of a nation, and I care not who makes its laws." --Mayer Amschel Rothschild

Read more: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/m/mayer_amschel_rothschild.html#ixzz1KFtvyMdP
 
Will dixie admit that money is controlled and is a controlling lever over all of society?

Can dixie be honest for a change?
 
Cons have bitched about "class warfare" so long they can't even see their own more dastardly war on working class people.
 
I don't even understand this incoherence. Apple, we currently have an income tax, and it hasn't gotten rid of liquor tax or hotel tax, in fact, most of those taxes came about after the income tax. As for you argument about people spending money outside the US... they already do! Why do we keep getting examples of things that are already happening now, as a reason we shouldn't do this? It makes no logical sense. How can you even imagine someone who lives in the US, spending ALL their money elsewhere? How did they get there? Didn't they have to purchase a plane ticket in the US? And how much of this money is actual taxable income we would have normally collected an income tax on, versus money from a trust or savings, which would have never been 'income taxed' anyway?

If you live here and earn your income here, you can't help but to spend money here. If you're rich and want to buy your groceries in Switzerland instead of here, you still have to fill up the G-5 and pay a pilot in the US, so you are still going to pay the tax, and your money is going to make its way to others who will also pay the tax. Keep in mind, this is likely old money that has long-ago been income taxed, can't be taxed again as income, but can be taxed when spent.

Your whole argument sounds like something a 14-year-old came up with in about 3 minutes, after thinking of how to logically refute a 'consumption' tax. It has no basis in reality, it's not how things would be, it's a silly and ridiculous speculation, based on nothing more than your stubborn refusal to accept a good idea.

Obviously, I'm going to have to dumb this down for you. Wealthy people spend a lower percentage of their income. That's obvious by the fact the reason they are wealthy is because they didn't spend all their money on consumption. Is that easy enough to follow?

So, the tax from that money is not realized. It has not made it's way into the economy.

The second thing is wealthy people generate income from things like capital gains and other avenues which are either not taxed or taxed at a lower rate. Every dollar a person receives should be taxed. It's money coming in, income.

As for spending money out of country where do you think the money comes from that is used to invest in foreign countries? The way it is now big businesses get tax breaks. In other words less tax on income. They take that money and buy a factory in another country. Where is the tax for the US?

The well-to-do buy homes in other countries. Whether it's a Swiss Chalet or a modest time share they made that money in the US and having only a consumption tax means the tax on that money is lost.

Again, is that so difficult to follow?
 
Money definitely is used to control things. Ask the financiers. Then stop being a douchebag.

"Permit me to issue and control the money of a nation, and I care not who makes its laws." --Mayer Amschel Rothschild

Read more: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/m/mayer_amschel_rothschild.html#ixzz1KFtvyMdP

Ah, you're not comprehending basic English again, AssClown... I never said money doesn't get used to control things. I said that wealthy people don't "control" money, they "own" money, it's their "property" and it's protected under the Constitution, you have NO right to it. It's like claiming some people "control" the right to free speech... that's a boneheaded statement because we are all endowed with the freedom of speech, no one "controls" it. When you use the word "control" as it is being used by pinheads here, it gives a connotation that the money doesn't really belong to them, it belongs to all of us, and they are just in "control" of it.... whereas, we need to remove them of this "control" over something they aren't legitimately entitled to. I reject that entire line of thinking as COMMUNISM, and certainly NOT in line with American principles.
 
Obviously, I'm going to have to dumb this down for you. Wealthy people spend a lower percentage of their income. That's obvious by the fact the reason they are wealthy is because they didn't spend all their money on consumption. Is that easy enough to follow?

You should be an expert at dumbing things down. Yes, there are a lot of obvious things we can bring up here... it's obvious the rich keep getting richer, and the poor remain poor. This is because rich people are motivated by wealth and poor people are not motivated by wealth. This might be a shocker for you, but all rich people don't behave the same... some rich people are very frugal, others are very opulent. Those who are more frugal, naturally amass more wealth and don't generally spend as much as the opulent. Some rich people are greedy and some are benevolent. Some rich people give away more money than other rich people earn. You say that rich people don't spend all their income, but not very many people do spend all their incomes, if they are smart. It's actually one of the attributes which contributes to a rich person being wealthy, they were WISE with what they spent their money on, they didn't blow it on a bottle of ripple and a lottery ticket.

So, the tax from that money is not realized. It has not made it's way into the economy.

Right, and there isn't a way to force people to spend their wealth. Taxation tends to have the opposite effect, raise it too high, and fewer people will spend money. This is the reason most tax increases do not result in increased revenue. In order to get this money into the system so taxes can be realized, some incentive must be present to encourage people to spend their wealth. You stubbornly and defiantly refuse to let that happen, out of fear they will use their money to create more wealth. It's the diametric opposite of what you should do, if you want to increase revenues.

The second thing is wealthy people generate income from things like capital gains and other avenues which are either not taxed or taxed at a lower rate. Every dollar a person receives should be taxed. It's money coming in, income.

The more you tax something, the more rare the behavior becomes. This is another one of those "obvious things" we can look at here. This applies to rich people, poor people, and those in between. The higher the rate of taxation on anything, the less of it you will have. You want to tax income more? You'll create LESS income to be taxed more, it's the nature of the beast. To encourage a behavior, you have to incentivize the behavior... if you want more people to be wealthy, reduce the amount you are committed to take in taxes.

As for spending money out of country where do you think the money comes from that is used to invest in foreign countries? The way it is now big businesses get tax breaks. In other words less tax on income. They take that money and buy a factory in another country. Where is the tax for the US?

It's amazing.... you are using the argument that corporations buy factories in other countries because the taxes are lower, to support higher taxes to keep companies from buying factories in other countries? That can't possibly make any sense to even someone as illogical as you. If you want these companies to not buy factories in foreign countries, do something to inventivize buying factories in America, like eliminate corporate taxes! Now, if I am a rich person, all things being equal, I would rather buy a factory here, even though I might have to pay higher wages, because it reduces the costs associated with operation of a foreign factory. Remember, the reason I am buying a foreign factory instead, was because the tax rate was lower... that incentive has now been mitigated with no corporate tax.

The well-to-do buy homes in other countries. Whether it's a Swiss Chalet or a modest time share they made that money in the US and having only a consumption tax means the tax on that money is lost.

Well, not ALL the "well-to-do" buy homes in other countries, some never even visit other countries, we've been through this earlier... you want to paint an entire group of people you don't even know, with a broad brush, and insist they all behave the same... that is the viewpoint of a bigot. People are all individuals, they behave differently, their motivations are different. Now Apple, I don't care if you want to buy a blow-up doll from China, or spend your money on 1-900 calls to Russian hookers... it's your money, you can spend it wherever you please. Why do you think a person should have this right removed once they obtain wealth? I don't care that the wealthy might spend their money elsewhere, they aren't going to spend ALL their money elsewhere, if they LIVE in the United States! Now if they go and LIVE in their Swiss Chalet, what difference does it make? People living in Switzerland are not subject to US taxation, so what difference could it make to us? Even if you operated your American company from Switzerland, and earned an income in America... you sold something to someone, and a 23% Fair Tax was charged, collected, and paid to the US government in the transaction. After that, what you spend your money on should be your own business.

As for how a consumption tax would work, you are forgetting some crucial details to the plan... First of all, those who currently do not pay an income tax, would not be paying the Fair Tax on any basic need. The concept includes a "prebate" check, which is the estimated amount of Fair Tax a family would pay for food, rent, housing, clothing, medical, etc.. Each month, the "poor people" would get a check for the taxes on basic necessities of life, so they would not be paying any fair tax, if they didn't want to. People who are 'self-producers' like farmers, might actually come out well, because they might not even spend the estimated amount, and they could actually profit off the Fair Tax system. But now... let's move to THE RICH, and how this would effect them. I think you would agree, wealthy people tend to be more extravagant in their spending than someone who may be on a budget, living pay check to pay check. While we can't say this is always the case, because as I said earlier, we are all individuals with different circumstances, this is one of those obvious things we should be able to rationally agree with. People with money, tend to spend it. Yes, the rich person might indeed buy a Swiss chalet, but (1) that might be from trust funds and not income earned... and they are probably going to also throw a big going away party in The Hamptons for all their dearest friends... then they will most likely have to buy a plane ticket... how else are they going to get there? Oh, maybe they have to fly the G5? Then.... they just HAVE to bring along some staff... this could get costly.... but the 23% Fair Tax tab is rolling buddy! We're making revenue off ALL this "Old Money" that hasn't been spent in years! Income is one thing, consumption is a whole different thing. Rich people spend large sums of money... I do know this to be a fact. And they tend to do this more when times are good and things are prosperous.

Finally, one last point I wanted to make, and it's on the issues you may personally have with 'corporate welfare' and how the greedy rich people and companies are all ripping us off with the tax codes, getting all these sweetheart deals... government subsidies and kickbacks.... loopholes in the tax code, which allow companies like GE to make billions and not pay taxes. With the Fair Tax, that all goes bye-bye. No more loopholes, no more deductions.... no more corporate tax or income tax! Just the 23% Fair Tax on everything bought or sold in America.
 
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