Why do we even trade with them?

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Topspin

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Chinese dissident Liu Xiaobo placed under arrest

BEIJING – A prominent Chinese dissident who called for political reform has been arrested for allegedly trying to overthrow the country's socialist system, his wife said Wednesday, marking the highest-profile activist arrest since before last year's Olympics.

Liu Xiaobo had already been held at a secret location for more than six months without being charged or formally arrested. He was taken into police custody on Dec. 8, a day before a manifesto he co-authored was released urging sweeping changes to China's rigid political system.

Police delivered a written notice to Liu's wife, Liu Xia, Wednesday morning informing her that her husband was formally arrested Tuesday on suspicion of "inciting to subvert state power" and transferred to a Beijing city detention center. The next step would be indictment, according to Liu's lawyer.

The charge carries a maximum sentence of 15 years in jail.

"I am so worried about him," Liu Xia said, fighting back tears. "I don't know how many more years he will be imprisoned now."

Liu Xia last saw her husband March 20 during a supervised visit where she noted that he looked thin and pale but otherwise seemed well. She said she doesn't know why her husband is considered such a threat to the ruling Communist Party.

"All he has is a pen and some paper," she said in a Beijing courtyard outside Liu's lawyer's office. "Here in China, he's not been able to express his opinions or have the freedom to publish. He has nothing, none of the basic rights or guarantees of a citizen. I don't understand how they could deprive a person to such an extent."

Liu's detention marks the most high-profile arrest of a Chinese dissident since human rights activist Hu Jia was detained last year ahead of the Beijing Olympics. Hu was sentenced to 3 1/2 years in prison for sedition last April.

China has always reacted sharply to any challenges to its one-party system, but it is also cracking down on any dissent ahead of a gala celebrating the communist regime's 60th anniversary on Oct. 1.

Liu, 53, is a former university professor who spent 20 months in jail for joining the 1989 student-led protests in Tiananmen Square.

In his writings, most published only on the Internet, Liu has called for civil rights and political reform, making him subject to routine harassment by authorities.

He was among more than 300 lawyers, writers, scholars and artists who signed "Charter 08" in December calling for a new constitution guaranteeing human rights, election of public officials, freedom of religion and expression, and an end to the Communist Party's hold over the military, courts and government.

It also calls for the abolition of the criminal code that allows people to be imprisoned for "incitement to subvert state power."

Police detained Liu a day ahead of the charter's release, possibly because they considered him a key organizer, in addition to his role in drafting and revising the document, his lawyer Mo Shaoping has said.

Mo said Wednesday that Liu Xia was advised by police to find a new lawyer for her husband because Mo was among the charter signatories.

China's official Xinhua News Agency reported Wednesday that Liu had been engaged in "agitation activities, such as spreading of rumors and defaming of the government, aimed at subversion of the state and overthrowing the socialism system in recent years." It cited no specific examples and said that Liu allegedly confessed while in police custody.

Liu Xia and Mo both said they did not believe Liu had confessed to the charge. They said he more likely acknowledged authoring essays that the prosecution plans to use as evidence.

The singling out of Liu for prosecution seems to be an effort to warn others involved in the charter. Other signatories have been called in for talks with police but not arrested. A Peking University law professor, He Weifang, was reassigned to a post in the far western Xinjiang region after signing the document in an apparent rebuke.

Earlier this month, the leader of the U.S. House of Representatives, Democrat Nancy Pelosi, called for Liu's "immediate and unconditional release." She also wrote a letter to Chinese President Hu Jintao last month asking that Liu and other Chinese "prisoners of conscience" be released.

Liu had been held in an unknown location since December. The San Francisco-based Dui Hua Foundation said earlier this month he was being kept at a hotel on the outskirts of Beijing — a claim that could not be verified.

Chinese law limits such "house arrest" to six months and Mo demanded on June 8 that Liu be released immediately, saying that it was illegal to hold him any longer.
 
We trade with them because they are bankrolling our out of control debt. Just how the fuck do you think our government can spend trillions of dollars it doesn't have? The answer is obvious if you look up how much US debt the Chinese currently hold. So, if you and your pinhead friends have several trillion dollars laying around so we can pay off what we owe the Chinese, and if you are willing to put a hold on all of these liberal initiatives of 'entitlement' you have dreamed up, then perhaps we could condemn the Chinese and stop doing business with them. As it stands, they own our ass.
 
they own inbred alabama dumbasses like you.
I however know, let me repeat know.
that this country can do without China's slave wage products.
We stopped skullfucking our own workers 100yrs ago, now it's time to rise above raping some foreigners.
 
Topspin said:
they own ******* like you.
I however know, let me repeat know.
that this country can do without China's slave wage products.
We stopped skullfucking our own workers 100yrs ago, now it's time to rise above raping some foreigners.
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Did you just not read my post or what? Do you understand, we currently owe the Chinese trillions of dollars? Do you have trillions of dollars? I don't! And I don't think our government does either, since Obama has tripled the deficit. Now what you are suggesting is sounding a lot like condemning the mafia while you still owe them money. How smart would that move be?

Something liberals need to understand is, money doesn't grow on trees, and there is not some endless pile of it in Washington. Your whore politicians have pulled a fast one on you... all of this shit they've promised and delivered to get you to keep them in power, is done with money we've borrowed from the Chinese. Much of the cost for universal healthcare is going to come from China, they are about the only country left who will still take the risk on our debt.

I agree 100% that we ought not be trading with the Communist bastards, but until we repay what we owe them, we really don't have that choice. Oh, you can dream... you can come here and post all outraged about it, but the bottom line of reality is, we will continue to trade with the country holding the bulk of our national debt. Until you can figure out a way around that reality, it is pointless to raise such a protest.
 
If we didn't buy their products then the typical Chinese worker would make even less. Chinese are generally good people, it's just their government that sucks. They and I have a lot in common. *shrug*
 
kkk skinheads like you usually are that narrow minded.
we don't need slave labor products to get through the day moron.
 
China doesn't even carry the same dollar amount as Obama's new healthcare spending proposal fro 2009. All this talk that china own's us is so glamorized and false its almost funny.
 
Topspin said:
they own inbred alabama dumbasses like you.
I however know, let me repeat know.
that this country can do without China's slave wage products.
We stopped skullfucking our own workers 100yrs ago, now it's time to rise above raping some foreigners.
Click to expand...

Word up!
 
Southern Man said:
If we didn't buy their products then the typical Chinese worker would make even less. Chinese are generally good people, it's just their government that sucks. They and I have a lot in common. *shrug*
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Oh come one SF, that's an exageration and you know it. You may suck but you dont' suck nearly as badly as the Chinese government.
 
Chapdog said:
China doesn't even carry the same dollar amount as Obama's new healthcare spending proposal fro 2009. All this talk that china own's us is so glamorized and false its almost funny.
Click to expand...

What in the hell are you trying to say? China holds almost $1 trillion in US Treasury Securities alone. With Japan, they hold about half of all our foreign held debt. This is JUST the governmental debt held by China, there are billions of dollars in US corporations and private sector interests, as well as real estate, owned by the Chinese.

To sit here and pretend this is not the case, or not the very legitimate and valid reason for why we can't simply boycott Chinese trade, is ridiculous.
 
Dixie said:
What in the hell are you trying to say? China holds almost $1 trillion in US Treasury Securities alone. With Japan, they hold about half of all our foreign held debt. This is JUST the governmental debt held by China, there are billions of dollars in US corporations and private sector interests, as well as real estate, owned by the Chinese.

To sit here and pretend this is not the case, or not the very legitimate and valid reason for why we can't simply boycott Chinese trade, is ridiculous.
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point im making is china owns about a third of 1 year of US tax revenue. They hardly own us.
 
China needs us way more than we need them.
They are not going to shoot themselves in the foot in regards to the stableness of the dollar.
 
uscitizen said:
Why do we even trade with them?

Greed.
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That's a nice sounding liberal platitude, and to some degree, greed has gotten us into this situation, but not in the way you think. Over the years, we have been greedy enough to cajole our government into providing things it can't afford, because we greedily believe we are "entitled" to it. Politicians who greedily want power, whore out themselves as well as the US Treasury, to countries like China, in order to give their greedy constituents what they want.

So now, we owe the Chinese and we can't pay the bill. Ohhh... I feel an analogy coming on.... Let's say you own a grocery store... Sam has been a loyal customer since 1972, but he ran into some problems back in the 80s, and you started letting him buy his groceries on credit. He has amassed quite a bill, but he is a good customer, buying lots of your best stuff, Sam spares no expense. Sam knows he can come to your store anytime, and whether he has money or not, he can get the groceries he needs. You don't mind, since he seems to be an honest fella, and he does pay a little on his debt each month, unlike some others. More important to you, it's business you are getting from Sam, and probably some of his friends who've heard Sam talk about your store.

Now... You notice that Sam hasn't been in your store lately... it's odd, because he usually comes two or three times a week, and it's been a month. What is going on, you wonder? After some probing, you find that Sam is boycotting your store, not buying from you anymore, because he doesn't like how you make your employees work on weekends. He bitches about your floor being dirty, and you don't pay enough... so he is now buying groceries from the French store down the road.

Under this scenario, do you think Sam isn't going to be called on his debt? If so, let us hope you never own a grocery store! Do you think Sam will be given any more credit? And what does the French grocer do when he observes how Sam did you... does he extend a line of credit to someone who is prone to bail? All I can say is, you would have to be living in a different universe to not understand this.

China has bought our debt... they hold it! The reason they did this, was because we buy a lot of Chinese stuff, and it is an investment for them! If we aren't going to buy their stuff, why would they want to hold our debt? If we are going to trade with the competition, why wouldn't they want to cash in on the US debt they hold?

Yeah... I know, it makes your heads hurt! They buy our debt, we buy their cheap Chinese junk! If you want to cancel that arrangement, you need a couple trillion dollars first. That is reality, like it or not. I can agree with you pinheads 100% about the human rights abuses in China, and how we should be doing more about it... but reality is reality, regardless of what my position is. We're not going to stop trade with China any more than pigs are going to sprout wings and start flying. I've explained in simple terms, why that is the case. What more can I do?
 
Chapdog said:
point im making is china owns about a third of 1 year of US tax revenue. They hardly own us.
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I never claimed China owned us. You're not speaking or typing this in Chinese, so that is pretty fucking obvious. China does own a pretty large chunk of our ass though, and if we decide to get all cocky and stop trading with China, where is all that money going to come from? Furthermore, with the declining US dollar, where is any future money going to come from if we piss off China? Last I checked, the line of countries willing to risk investment in the US dollar, was fairly short.
 
Mottleydude said:
Oh come one SF, that's an exageration and you know it. You may suck but you dont' suck nearly as badly as the Chinese government.
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I see your reading comprehension hasn't improved, nor has your sense of humor. Since "they" is plural it can only refer to "people"; if I had meant "government" I would have used the word "it" instead. *shrug*
 
Dixie said:
I never claimed China owned us. You're not speaking or typing this in Chinese, so that is pretty fucking obvious. China does own a pretty large chunk of our ass though, and if we decide to get all cocky and stop trading with China, where is all that money going to come from? Furthermore, with the declining US dollar, where is any future money going to come from if we piss off China? Last I checked, the line of countries willing to risk investment in the US dollar, was fairly short.
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Let me get this straight - we have to boldly stand up for freedom & democracy, except when it costs us a few bucks?
 
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