What Should Happen to Jared Loughner?

[DamnYankee]

What I find most interesting about this subject is that it always appears that those on the right refuse to listen to anything SCIENTIFIC on the issue of mental illness and criminal culpability. While we still are a long way from knowing everything about schizophrenia and other mental illnesses there has been a great deal of research into mental illness. Researchers like Benjamin Hare have used PET scans to show how different maladies are brain specific. How areas of the brain dealing with impulse control and reasoning operate in people with mental illness. I think it has a great deal to do with the inability or unwillingness to accept new and different ideas.

For centuries Mental Illness was viewed by these types of people as Demon Possession. The Mentally ill were subjected to exocism, flogging, and torture in an attempt to "drive the devil out". The same can be said for how midwives were treated. They used herbs and roots to treat illness and were called witches. It could NEVER be that these women just educated themselves as to the affects different compounds had on illness, no it must be satan.

Travel forward to the present and mental illness is just seen as an excuse, brain studies and the like be damned, this is all about the moral breakdown in america. It is always a simple solution to those on the right, just put a bullet in his head. The thought process takes control of their whole lives, the only thing wrong with america is lack of prayer in school, gay marriage, too much socialism, insert your favorite right wing moral decay problem here. Science is beyond a great deal of them. Misconceptions about evolution, mostly related to Darwin make them ignore all the other science that while still imperfect beats the fuck out of a 7 day creation theory and a 7000 year old planet. Don't get me wrong, the left have their fucked up orthodoxies too, but when it comes to science, for whatever reason, those on the left are much more open minded.

The Left are "open-minded" simply because they are looking for any excuse for lack of personal responsibility. Nice Non-sequitor and diversion from how out of your depth you are on this subject. Carry on.

 

[Socrtease]

The Left are "open-minded" simply because they are looking for any excuse for lack of personal responsibility. Nice Non-sequitor and diversion from how out of your depth you are on this subject. Carry on.

See this is what I mean, you as a right winger will deny all science because for you it is as simple as black and white, good and evil. There is nothing wrong with anyone's brain they are just faking and not taking responsibility. THank for so quickly proving my point. You are the face the traditional right wing. You are the spiritual and political heir to the people who persecuted Galilleo for dare saying the earth was not at the center of the universe. For persecuting "heritics" who dared to say that you could have a personal relationship with god that did not require a priest or Rome and those that burned women at the stake because they knew how to treat illness with more than mumbled latin prayers.

 

[WinterBorn]

The Left are "open-minded" simply because they are looking for any excuse for lack of personal responsibility. Nice Non-sequitor and diversion from how out of your depth you are on this subject. Carry on.

There is a huge difference between looking for excuses or avoiding personal responsibility, and someone having a serious mental illness. To claim otherwise is simply showing your ignorance.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

What I find most interesting about this subject is that it always appears that those on the right refuse to listen to anything SCIENTIFIC on the issue of mental illness and criminal culpability. While we still are a long way from knowing everything about schizophrenia and other mental illnesses there has been a great deal of research into mental illness. Researchers like Benjamin Hare have used PET scans to show how different maladies are brain specific. How areas of the brain dealing with impulse control and reasoning operate in people with mental illness. I think it has a great deal to do with the inability or unwillingness to accept new and different ideas.

For centuries Mental Illness was viewed by these types of people as Demon Possession. The Mentally ill were subjected to exocism, flogging, and torture in an attempt to "drive the devil out". The same can be said for how midwives were treated. They used herbs and roots to treat illness and were called witches. It could NEVER be that these women just educated themselves as to the affects different compounds had on illness, no it must be satan.

Travel forward to the present and mental illness is just seen as an excuse, brain studies and the like be damned, this is all about the moral breakdown in america. It is always a simple solution to those on the right, just put a bullet in his head. The thought process takes control of their whole lives, the only thing wrong with america is lack of prayer in school, gay marriage, too much socialism, insert your favorite right wing moral decay problem here. Science is beyond a great deal of them. Misconceptions about evolution, mostly related to Darwin make them ignore all the other science that while still imperfect beats the fuck out of a 7 day creation theory and a 7000 year old planet. Don't get me wrong, the left have their fucked up orthodoxies too, but when it comes to science, for whatever reason, those on the left are much more open minded.

Both sides ignore Science when it disagrees with their positions or threatens those in power.

That said, if there is a cure for a particular mental illness, then by all means use it. To be clear, when I say 'cure' I mean either an actual cure or a way to control it so the person can behave in a manner in which right/wrong is still recognized.

When we have an animal that has an uncontrollable disease, we say it is 'humane' to put them down. The same 'humane' standard should apply to humans. Too often we think 'death' is inhumane when compared to life in prison or life in a mental facility. Personally, I disagree with this notion. Locking me in a cage would be far more inhumane in my case than death.

Obviously we have to be sure... not 95%... but 100% certain that the person committed a crime that would result in a decision between life without parole and death. In those cases it is my position that death is the more humane option.

In the case of mental illness, we would have to be 100% sure that no known cure/treatment exists. That said, I admit my knee jerk reaction was to give the coward a double tap. Largely because I skip over pissed and go right to rage when someone hurts a child. When that happens, I have zero sympathy for them. Regardless of mental condition.

Just my random thoughts on the matter.

 

[WinterBorn]

Both sides ignore Science when it disagrees with their positions or threatens those in power.

That said, if there is a cure for a particular mental illness, then by all means use it. To be clear, when I say 'cure' I mean either an actual cure or a way to control it so the person can behave in a manner in which right/wrong is still recognized.

When we have an animal that has an uncontrollable disease, we say it is 'humane' to put them down. The same 'humane' standard should apply to humans. Too often we think 'death' is inhumane when compared to life in prison or life in a mental facility. Personally, I disagree with this notion. Locking me in a cage would be far more inhumane in my case than death.

Obviously we have to be sure... not 95%... but 100% certain that the person committed a crime that would result in a decision between life without parole and death. In those cases it is my position that death is the more humane option.

In the case of mental illness, we would have to be 100% sure that no known cure/treatment exists. That said, I admit my knee jerk reaction was to give the coward a double tap. Largely because I skip over pissed and go right to rage when someone hurts a child. When that happens, I have zero sympathy for them. Regardless of mental condition.

Just my random thoughts on the matter.

The murder of the child does make it harder to be sympathetic, but I think the value of true justice is our mercy for those held in the grips of a serious mental illness. I'm not talking some "twinkie defense" bullshit.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

The murder of the child does make it harder to be sympathetic, but I think the value of true justice is our mercy for those held in the grips of a serious mental illness. I'm not talking some "twinkie defense" bullshit.

I know what you are saying and I would like to be able to overcome my emotions and come to that viewpoint. But no sympathy will I ever have for him. Illness or not.

That said, if there is a way to treat/cure his condition, I would not be opposed to him spending life in prison while given said treatment.

 

[DamnYankee]

See this is what I mean, you as a right winger will deny all science because for you it is as simple as black and white, good and evil. There is nothing wrong with anyone's brain they are just faking and not taking responsibility. THank for so quickly proving my point. You are the face the traditional right wing. You are the spiritual and political heir to the people who persecuted Galilleo for dare saying the earth was not at the center of the universe. For persecuting "heritics" who dared to say that you could have a personal relationship with god that did not require a priest or Rome and those that burned women at the stake because they knew how to treat illness with more than mumbled latin prayers.

Actually Soc, your argument here is the same straw man that you've tried to create for me before. No one of intellect has bought it.

 

[WinterBorn]

Actually Soc, your argument here is the same straw man that you've tried to create for me before. No one of intellect has bought it.

How is it a strawman? You have repeatedly made statements that prove what he is saying.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

See this is what I mean, you as a right winger will deny all science because for you it is as simple as black and white, good and evil. There is nothing wrong with anyone's brain they are just faking and not taking responsibility. THank for so quickly proving my point. You are the face the traditional right wing. You are the spiritual and political heir to the people who persecuted Galilleo for dare saying the earth was not at the center of the universe. For persecuting "heritics" who dared to say that you could have a personal relationship with god that did not require a priest or Rome and those that burned women at the stake because they knew how to treat illness with more than mumbled latin prayers.

I am somewhat offended by your comments, I am a right-winger and I also have a degree in psychology. I understand science, specifically, psychology. I also understand our laws, and how they apply in most cases. In this particular case, a defense on the grounds of mental competency caused by schizophrenia, is a very real possibility, but it is not a guaranteed defense. For instance, it has to be shown, the defendant had no comprehension of right or wrong, his understanding of reality was such, that he did not understand the consequences of his actions. With the facts that have trickled out in this case, I believe he was fully aware of what he was doing, it was premeditated, and he fully understood the consequences of his actions. I'm not a jury, and I'm sure there are many other factors I am unaware of at this time, therefore, unable to say with certainty, what a jury will find, but it could go either way. Overcoming the evidence he was fully cognizant, is the biggest obstacle to his defense, if he attempts mental incompetence.

As I said in my OP, there isn't anyone who believes he was mentally healthy, people who are mentally stable just don't do things like this. But, we don't turn criminals loose or excuse criminal behavior because someone isn't in perfect mental health. IF we did that, there would be a whole lot of Jared Loughner's running around out there, and a whole lot more murders and shootings like Tucson. The question is, to what degree is Loughner mentally unstable? In my opinion, it's not enough to avoid the death penalty.

 

[Damocles]

What I find most interesting about this subject is that it always appears that those on the right refuse to listen to anything SCIENTIFIC on the issue of mental illness and criminal culpability. While we still are a long way from knowing everything about schizophrenia and other mental illnesses there has been a great deal of research into mental illness. Researchers like Benjamin Hare have used PET scans to show how different maladies are brain specific. How areas of the brain dealing with impulse control and reasoning operate in people with mental illness. I think it has a great deal to do with the inability or unwillingness to accept new and different ideas.

For centuries Mental Illness was viewed by these types of people as Demon Possession. The Mentally ill were subjected to exocism, flogging, and torture in an attempt to "drive the devil out". The same can be said for how midwives were treated. They used herbs and roots to treat illness and were called witches. It could NEVER be that these women just educated themselves as to the affects different compounds had on illness, no it must be satan.

Travel forward to the present and mental illness is just seen as an excuse, brain studies and the like be damned, this is all about the moral breakdown in america. It is always a simple solution to those on the right, just put a bullet in his head. The thought process takes control of their whole lives, the only thing wrong with america is lack of prayer in school, gay marriage, too much socialism, insert your favorite right wing moral decay problem here. Science is beyond a great deal of them. Misconceptions about evolution, mostly related to Darwin make them ignore all the other science that while still imperfect beats the fuck out of a 7 day creation theory and a 7000 year old planet. Don't get me wrong, the left have their fucked up orthodoxies too, but when it comes to science, for whatever reason, those on the left are much more open minded.

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[leaningright]

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LOL.....I read it and thought the same thing...all three of them. While I don't agree with all of what Soc is saying, but it was all well said. ???Does that make sense????

 

[Socrtease]

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Fixed it!

 

[Socrtease]

LOL.....I read it and thought the same thing...all three of them. While I don't agree with all of what Soc is saying, but it was all well said. ???Does that make sense????

I admit that I made some broad sweeping generalities, for that I apologize, but I think that it is accurate in a broad sense.

I also agree with DY, ( I know shock!) that the Left also likes science unless it disagrees with their orthodoxy. Global warming comes to mind immediately. But the Right seems to be far less accepting of science, and have a very long history of that going back hundreds of years.

I guess I should probably not even lable it as left and right but more liberal and conservative to be more historically accurate.