What Should Happen to Jared Loughner?

[FUCK THE POLICE]

In Arizona they have an option for "Guilty by Reason of Insanity", where he'll go to a shrink, but when he's fixed he goes to prison to serve his sentence. In this case, with multiple murder victims, it would likely be several consecutive life sentences.

Actually it's "guilty but insane" ("Guilty by reason of insanity" would be nonsensical), which I think is a dumb idea. If you ignorantly blame actions that happened due to the presence of a mental illness on the individual rather than the mental illness, you may as well just render a "guilty" verdict, and send them to special facilities designed to deal specifically with the insane. There's not really any reason for a separate verdict. In the case of "not guilty by reason of insanity", there is a reason for the separate verdict (mandatory detention in a mental hospital).

There are special legal protections for some insane from the death penalty, but I'm not sure exactly what test is used to apply it. It may just apply to people who aren't capable of understanding what's going on. I'm reasonably sure it's not dependent on whatever prescientific standards the government in question chooses to apply to pretend that they have an insanity defense.

 

[apple0154]

Dixie is talking about "putting down" animals that are mad....
and
Pinhead is talking about euthanasia.....

WTF has one got to do with the other?

Does pinhead think that those mad dogs requested we "put them down"....that they came to Dixie and said, "hey Dix, how about shooting me in the head, I don't feel good, bow wow"....?
Is he saying that if the shooter requests to commit suicide, we should help him, or let do it himself?

Is Apple in the wrong thread?

Not the wrong thread. Dixie raised a valid point. There are some who, knowing they will be forever incarcerated, would prefer death. It's not unusual for a perpetrator to kill themselves rather than surrender.

The questions become, "Is the main reason for the justice system to protect society or to punish individuals? Is punishment administered as an attempt to prevent the person from committing such a crime again? If so, their death would certainly accomplish that.

 

[evince]

This kid has a brain chemestry inbalence.

I can not image his own horror when he is medicated and realizes what he has done.

He is very likely a paranoid schizophrenic.

Most of his friends said he was a sweet guy before the brain chemistry imbalence crept up on him.

Those of you who wish him dead dont realize the guy who you will kill is not the brain imbalenced kid who did the crime.

If you have ever known someone with this type of problem you would realize its as blamable as being angry at someone who is diabetic.

The mind is an organ and when its not processing the chemical balence properly the world the patient sees is an entirely different world than reality.

This kid will have punishment enough just living medicated and incarcerated and trying to deal with what he did.

I feel for the kid big time.

That in no way deminishes the horrible things the victims and their families will continue to go through.

 

[Damocles]

Actually it's "guilty but insane" ("Guilty by reason of insanity" would be nonsensical), which I think is a dumb idea. If you ignorantly blame actions that happened due to the presence of a mental illness on the individual rather than the mental illness, you may as well just render a "guilty" verdict, and send them to special facilities designed to deal specifically with the insane. There's not really any reason for a separate verdict. In the case of "not guilty by reason of insanity", there is a reason for the separate verdict (mandatory detention in a mental hospital).

There are special legal protections for some insane from the death penalty, but I'm not sure exactly what test is used to apply it. It may just apply to people who aren't capable of understanding what's going on. I'm reasonably sure it's not dependent on whatever prescientific standards the government in question chooses to apply to pretend that they have an insanity defense.

Actually the reason for the separate verdict is so that they will be sent to places specifically designed to deal with the insane. The very reason you reject and think they should get the same verdict and be sent (for no apparent reason) to a place for the mentally deranged. Even with the chemical imbalance the guy knew what he was doing was wrong, he just believed that the price was worth the conduct.

 

[apple0154]

The mind is an organ and when its not processing the chemical balence properly the world the patient sees is an entirely different world than reality.

Exactly! I had a tenant who was schizophrenic. I wasn't aware until he had an episode and I met his mother. She told me they were out the day before and he kept walking in the street. She asked why he wouldn't walk on the sidewalk and he said he wasn't allowed. When she asked him to explain he pointed to the sign that had the letter "P" on it with a line through it. His first name began with a "P".

His interpretation of the "no parking" sign meant he wasn't allowed on the sidewalk.

He had a good education and a well paying job.

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

This kid has a brain chemestry inbalence.

I can not image his own horror when he is medicated and realizes what he has done.

He is very likely a paranoid schizophrenic.

Most of his friends said he was a sweet guy before the brain chemistry imbalence crept up on him.

Those of you who wish him dead dont realize the guy who you will kill is not the brain imbalenced kid who did the crime.

If you have ever known someone with this type of problem you would realize its as blamable as being angry at someone who is diabetic.

The mind is an organ and when its not processing the chemical balence properly the world the patient sees is an entirely different world than reality.

This kid will have punishment enough just living medicated and incarcerated and trying to deal with what he did.

I feel for the kid big time.

That in no way deminishes the horrible things the victims and their families will continue to go through.

 

[wanderingbear]

The man is obviously suffering from mental illness.A trip to the state hospital for a few years should do him some good.

 

[DamnYankee]

The man is obviously suffering from mental illness.A trip to the state hospital for a few years should do him some good.

A bullet is cheaper and the success rate is guaranteed.

 

[Topspin]

He should be put in a Carribu outfit and let loose on the set of Sarah's Alaska. You betcha!!

 

[Socrtease]

I love how people who typically say some of the stupidest things on this board also vote for death. IF someone gave him a drug which caused him to act irrationally and kill people, and he could prove the intoxication was involuntary, he would NEVER be convicted of a crime. They would find the person that drugged him and prosecute them for the crimes. IF it turns out he is schizophrenic then it is just the same as being involuntarily drugged. He had no control of his actions. He could even know that society would see his actions as wrong and that he should not have done it. That makes him no less under the compulsions of his mental illness. This is why lay people should not be allowed to make decisions about what should happen to the mentally ill. Most people don't have the intellectual capacity to understand what is going on in the brain of a mentally ill person.

 

[Socrtease]

No, just asking what opinions are. I know it is hard to believe I actually wanted your opinion, and you may not even understand what that means, living in a world where you are told what to do like a little prole, but I just thought it would make for an interesting poll question and discussion.

I don't think there are many left, who think this guy wasn't mentally disturbed to some degree.. but he obviously knew right from wrong, just before the shootings, he left voice mails to his friends asking them to not be mad at him. So what should be done with this individual? I voted to fry him. I know that may seem harsh, being that I also believe he is mentally disturbed and crazy... but my perspective on that is, we put down mad dogs, mad pigs, mad horses, and all kinds of other animals who have lost their mind, and never have a problem with that. In fact, we view that as "humane" to do... but not with people? We're supposed to keep him institutionalized or imprisoned, trapped in his schizophrenic world for the rest of his natural life? How cruel can you possibly be? So, from my perspective, we would be putting him out of his misery, and ridding society of his presence. Win-win!

You really want us all to think you are this stupid? The difference between dogs, pigs and horses is we have drugs that can remove the psychosis from someone that is mentally ill. They will not need to be imprisoned, institutionalized or trapped in a schizophrenic world. I have a friend with schizophrenia who is well medicated and has just completed a Bachelors degree in English. She is a very accomplished writer and painter. She still hears the voices but they are in the background and not in the forefront of her consciousness. She no longer is overwhelmed by them and lives on her own with out even the assistance of a home healthcare provider. By your post above you show the volumes of things you don't know about mental illness and the complete lack of compassion you have for human beings.

 

[Canceled2]

I love how people who typically say some of the stupidest things on this board also vote for death. IF someone gave him a drug which caused him to act irrationally and kill people, and he could prove the intoxication was involuntary, he would NEVER be convicted of a crime. They would find the person that drugged him and prosecute them for the crimes. IF it turns out he is schizophrenic then it is just the same as being involuntarily drugged. He had no control of his actions. He could even know that society would see his actions as wrong and that he should not have done it. That makes him no less under the compulsions of his mental illness. This is why lay people should not be allowed to make decisions about what should happen to the mentally ill. Most people don't have the intellectual capacity to understand what is going on in the brain of a mentally ill person.

What do you mean by "lay persons"? Are you speaking about jurors?

 

[Socrtease]

What do you mean by "lay persons"? Are you speaking about jurors?

I mean ANYONE not trained to understand mental illness. Hell even some people who claim to have degrees in Psychology don't know a thing about Neurochemistry, Neuropsychology, and the brain in general. If I represented him I would file a motion to determine competency, if he came back competent to stand trial then I would have him waive a jury, and have a judge hear the case. I would never let 12 ordinary people hear this case.

 

[Canceled2]

I mean ANYONE not trained to understand mental illness. Hell even some people who claim to have degrees in Psychology don't know a thing about Neurochemistry, Neuropsychology, and the brain in general. If I represented him I would file a motion to determine competency, if he came back competent to stand trial then I would have him waive a jury, and have a judge hear the case. I would never let 12 ordinary people hear this case.

If he is found to be a paranoid schizophrenic or to have some other mental psycopathy then he deserves to be tried as as such-

The burden for the state to prove he is mentally competent seems pretty clear cut and Loughner certainly seems to be a candidate for a competence hearing. In Arizona the burden to prove mental defect/insanity is a hurdle for the defendent- however, schizophrenia is not a difficult diagnosis to make, though it does require a very skilled doctor and enough time spent with the patient to rule out other possible psychotic illnesses.

 

[Russellbor]

Being pro life I vote for life without parole. If he was given the death penalty I would not be too upset though.

 

[DamnYankee]

Most people don't have the intellectual capacity to understand what is going on in the brain of a mentally ill person.

You, however, know exactly what is happening in the mind of a mentally ill person.

 

[Socrtease]

You, however, know exactly what is happening in the mind of a mentally ill person.

I grew up in the house of a Board Certified Neuropsychologist and was his psychodiagnostician for 3 years as an undergrad. I know more about the brain of a schizophrenic by accident than you know about YOUR OWN brain on purpose.

 

[DamnYankee]

I grew up in the house of a Board Certified Neuropsychologist and was his psychodiagnostician for 3 years as an undergrad. I know more about the brain of a schizophrenic by accident than you know about YOUR OWN brain on purpose.

That explains a lot. Most kids who grow up with pshrinks end up as head cases.

 

[Socrtease]

That explains a lot. Most kids who grow up with pshrinks end up as head cases.

Nice Non-sequitor and diversion from how out of your depth you are on this subject. Carry on.

 

[Socrtease]

What I find most interesting about this subject is that it always appears that those on the right refuse to listen to anything SCIENTIFIC on the issue of mental illness and criminal culpability. While we still are a long way from knowing everything about schizophrenia and other mental illnesses there has been a great deal of research into mental illness. Researchers like Benjamin Hare have used PET scans to show how different maladies are brain specific. How areas of the brain dealing with impulse control and reasoning operate in people with mental illness. I think it has a great deal to do with the inability or unwillingness to accept new and different ideas.

For centuries Mental Illness was viewed by these types of people as Demon Possession. The Mentally ill were subjected to exocism, flogging, and torture in an attempt to "drive the devil out". The same can be said for how midwives were treated. They used herbs and roots to treat illness and were called witches. It could NEVER be that these women just educated themselves as to the affects different compounds had on illness, no it must be satan.

Travel forward to the present and mental illness is just seen as an excuse, brain studies and the like be damned, this is all about the moral breakdown in america. It is always a simple solution to those on the right, just put a bullet in his head. The thought process takes control of their whole lives, the only thing wrong with america is lack of prayer in school, gay marriage, too much socialism, insert your favorite right wing moral decay problem here. Science is beyond a great deal of them. Misconceptions about evolution, mostly related to Darwin make them ignore all the other science that while still imperfect beats the fuck out of a 7 day creation theory and a 7000 year old planet. Don't get me wrong, the left have their fucked up orthodoxies too, but when it comes to science, for whatever reason, those on the left are much more open minded.

 

[WinterBorn]

What I find most interesting about this subject is that it always appears that those on the right refuse to listen to anything SCIENTIFIC on the issue of mental illness and criminal culpability. While we still are a long way from knowing everything about schizophrenia and other mental illnesses there has been a great deal of research into mental illness. Researchers like Benjamin Hare have used PET scans to show how different maladies are brain specific. How areas of the brain dealing with impulse control and reasoning operate in people with mental illness. I think it has a great deal to do with the inability or unwillingness to accept new and different ideas.

For centuries Mental Illness was viewed by these types of people as Demon Possession. The Mentally ill were subjected to exocism, flogging, and torture in an attempt to "drive the devil out". The same can be said for how midwives were treated. They used herbs and roots to treat illness and were called witches. It could NEVER be that these women just educated themselves as to the affects different compounds had on illness, no it must be satan.

Travel forward to the present and mental illness is just seen as an excuse, brain studies and the like be damned, this is all about the moral breakdown in america. It is always a simple solution to those on the right, just put a bullet in his head. The thought process takes control of their whole lives, the only thing wrong with america is lack of prayer in school, gay marriage, too much socialism, insert your favorite right wing moral decay problem here. Science is beyond a great deal of them. Misconceptions about evolution, mostly related to Darwin make them ignore all the other science that while still imperfect beats the fuck out of a 7 day creation theory and a 7000 year old planet. Don't get me wrong, the left have their fucked up orthodoxies too, but when it comes to science, for whatever reason, those on the left are much more open minded.

I also think much of the prejudice comes from a lack of understanding about mental illness in general, and the specifics of certain mental illnesses. Education would go a long way here.

Good post, Soc.