What Is So Great About Unsustainably High Deficit Levels? And Exploding Student Debt?

[PoliTalker]

Our economy is propped up by constantly rising debt which cannot be maintained.

We are not taxing the rich enough to carry the rest or balance the budget. Not even close.

A Trillion dollar deficit for 329 million people can be reduced to simple math.

$1,000,000,000,000 / 329,000,000 = $3039.51 per person.

Obviously, every earner in the USA cannot come up with 3K for every person in their household.

That's how much taxes would have to be raised to balance the current budget.

It is not sustainable.

Debt vs GDP is growing.

That means our economy is based on constantly increasing the amount of debt compared to the size of our economy.

Gross debt / GDP ratio is now 105.45%.

US Debt Clock

Keep an eye on that. What happens if we allow that to continue growing?

Can we sustain a debt of 200% of our GDP? 400%? 1000% ???

Where do you draw the line?

Obviously we cannot allow this ratio, Debt/GDP, to constantly rise.

We lean on debt when we need to - to get us through bad times.

Using it to artificially pump up the economy during good times is irresponsible.

The Trump tax cut was irresponsible.

The longer it takes before we admit that, the deeper the hole we dig.

We cannot have an economy which depends on that level of rising debt. It's not just the amount of debt. It is the rate at which it is rising that is alarming.

PoliTalker anti-troll thread thief disclaimer: If this thread is stolen, plagiarized, will the thief have the nerve to use the entire OP, word for word? Including this disclaimer? If you want my take on it, you'll have to post to this original PoliTalker thread. I refuse to be an enabler for online bullies, so I won't post to a stolen thread. I won't even read it. If you don't see me, PoliTalker, posting in this thread check the author. This might be a hijacked thread, not the original.

And the exploding Student Loan debt is also going in the wrong direction. That punishes success. We need to reward doing well in school, not saddle them with crushing debt. That hurts the economy. Then when they get a job they can't afford to buy anything. They are too busy paying off their loans.

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

(R)s don't give a shit about deficits -- until a (D) is in the WH. In fact, they *prefer* high deficits so they can use them as an excuse to cut so-called entitlement programs like Medicare and Social Security, among others. Apparently we need more bloated defense contractor wallets, and less senior citizens and our demands for food and health care.

Republicans also love exploding student loan debt, for various reasons. 1. Makes lenders very happy to rake in all that interest. 2. It makes younger ppl very unhappy, and thus far more susceptible to the whisperings of "Think how great it will be if we can cut those old people off; you'll have more of your own money to spend."

 

[PoliTalker]

(R)s don't give a shit about deficits -- until a (D) is in the WH. In fact, they *prefer* high deficits so they can use them as an excuse to cut so-called entitlement programs like Medicare and Social Security, among others. Apparently we need more bloated defense contractor wallets, and less senior citizens and our demands for food and health care.

Republicans also love exploding student loan debt, for various reasons. 1. Makes lenders very happy to rake in all that interest. 2. It makes younger ppl very unhappy, and thus far more susceptible to the whisperings of "Think how great it will be if we can cut those old people off; you'll have more of your own money to spend."

Sadly, for many R's, that is true.

But there are plenty of fiscal conservatives on both sides. And it is time for fiscal conservatives of all stripes to SPEAK OUT LOUDLY against this insanity.

 

[NiftyNiblick]

If only those who benefited overall from Republican economic policies voted for Republicans, then there might not even be a single Republican in public office.
Those who benefit from Republican economic policy are tiny in number, and even there, the benefit is short term leading to ultimate disaster.

Republicans absolutely depend on their brain dead minions to vote directly AGAINST their own economic best interests.

What's more, they find it easy to get these zombies to do that.

They just tell them that they're actually better than somebody--ethnic minorities, immigrants, gays, you name it.

These slugs--racists, misogynists, xenophobes, theocrats, anti-intellectuals--are at the bottom of humanity's barrel,
but a pigfucker like Trump tells them that they're actually better than somebody--even though they're clearly not better than anybody,
and the ignorant cretins are anxious to believe it.

They'd rather think that they're better than somebody than accept liberal policies that actually would improve their situation.

There's no getting through to troglodytes like that. We must simply get out a larger vote. Not voting is equivalent to voting as they do.

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello NiftyNiblick,

If only those who benefited overall from Republican economic policies voted for Republicans, then there might not even be a single Republican in public office.
Those who benefit from Republican economic policy are tiny in number, and even there, the benefit is short term leading to ultimate disaster.

Republicans absolutely depend on their brain dead minions to vote directly AGAINST their own economic best interests.

What's more, they find it easy to get these zombies to do that.

They just tell them that they're actually better than somebody--ethnic minorities, immigrants, gays, you name it.

These slugs--racists, misogynists, xenophobes, theocrats, anti-intellectuals--are at the bottom of humanity's barrel,
but a pigfucker like Trump tells them that they're actually better than somebody--even though they're clearly not better than anybody,
and the ignorant cretins are anxious to believe it.

They'd rather think that they're better than somebody than accept liberal policies that actually would improve their situation.

There's no getting through to troglodytes like that. We must simply get out a larger vote. Not voting is equivalent to voting as they do.

Well, here's the problem with that, Nifty.

Hatred is a better motivator than an intellectual discussion.

Fear will get people to the polls.

A comprehensive analysis of the situation puts them to sleep.

There are a lot of people with a short attention span.

Maybe Trump will put the fear into some sleepy liberals and get them to the polls in vast numbers.

A big election turn out and Trump is toast.

 

[NiftyNiblick]

A comprehensive analysis of the situation puts them to sleep.

There are a lot of people with a short attention span.

So depressingly true, PolyTalker.

We're reaping the "rewards" from underfunding public education and mental health.

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello NiftyNiblick,

So depressingly true, PolyTalker.

We're reaping the "rewards" from underfunding public education and mental health.

That's why they only give education lip service, why it is reserved only for the rich and those who want to go into debt like they are.

 

[PoliTalker]

I don't understand the Republican strategy here.

They have put us into an unsustainable situation that makes the rich richer and kicks a really big debt can down the road.

What is so bad about taxing the rich enough to reduce the deficit? They are making money hand over fist. Even with higher taxes they will still be richer than everybody else. And still getting richer. I don't get it.

What is it - just pure greed?

They have no plan. There is no strategy to stabilize the rising debt/GDP ratio.

That cannot be allowed to rise indefinitely.

We have a fake 'good economy.' It depends on not collecting enough taxes from the rich. That situation has to be temporary. If it continues like that debt will become too great, and the USA will have it's national credit rating downgraded, and be forced to pay higher interest on the debt - or print money, which would kick off inflation. The only way out is to tax the rich more.

Tax the rich more.

Tax the rich more.

Tax the rich more.

It's the only way out.

 

[PoliTalker]

Debt to GDP ratio was 105.45% when this thread was created, is now 105.57%.

That's going the WRONG WAY.

If the economy is 'doing great' under Trump, the rise of the federal debt is 'doing greater' under Trump.

The debt is now $22.387 TRILLION.

The deficit has topped one TRILLION dollars, now $1.008 TRILLION.

The TRADE DEFICIT is now $879.181 billion. When will the trade deficit hit a TRILLION?

 

[Gonzomin]

The rich are building a new country based on Plutocracy. People like the Kochs have long term plans to change America in fundamental ways. If people had any idea of the wealth gap, they might be alarmed.

What has happened and is happening in America is ugly. The rightyu are helping this happen.

 

[Dirt McGirt]

Our economy is propped up by constantly rising debt which cannot be maintained.

We are not taxing the rich enough to carry the rest or balance the budget. Not even close.

A Trillion dollar deficit for 329 million people can be reduced to simple math.

$1,000,000,000,000 / 329,000,000 = $3039.51 per person.

Obviously, every earner in the USA cannot come up with 3K for every person in their household.

That's how much taxes would have to be raised to balance the current budget.

It is not sustainable.

Debt vs GDP is growing.

That means our economy is based on constantly increasing the amount of debt compared to the size of our economy.

Gross debt / GDP ratio is now 105.45%.

US Debt Clock

Keep an eye on that. What happens if we allow that to continue growing?

Can we sustain a debt of 200% of our GDP? 400%? 1000% ???

Where do you draw the line?

Obviously we cannot allow this ratio, Debt/GDP, to constantly rise.

We lean on debt when we need to - to get us through bad times.

Using it to artificially pump up the economy during good times is irresponsible.

The Trump tax cut was irresponsible.

The longer it takes before we admit that, the deeper the hole we dig.

We cannot have an economy which depends on that level of rising debt. It's not just the amount of debt. It is the rate at which it is rising that is alarming.

PoliTalker anti-troll thread thief disclaimer: If this thread is stolen, plagiarized, will the thief have the nerve to use the entire OP, word for word? Including this disclaimer? If you want my take on it, you'll have to post to this original PoliTalker thread. I refuse to be an enabler for online bullies, so I won't post to a stolen thread. I won't even read it. If you don't see me, PoliTalker, posting in this thread check the author. This might be a hijacked thread, not the original.

And the exploding Student Loan debt is also going in the wrong direction. That punishes success. We need to reward doing well in school, not saddle them with crushing debt. That hurts the economy. Then when they get a job they can't afford to buy anything. They are too busy paying off their loans.

What makes you think increasing taxes would result in anything other than increased spending?

 

[archives]

Debt to GDP ratio was 105.45% when this thread was created, is now 105.57%.

That's going the WRONG WAY.

If the economy is 'doing great' under Trump, the rise of the federal debt is 'doing greater' under Trump.

The debt is now $22.387 TRILLION.

The deficit has topped one TRILLION dollars, now $1.008 TRILLION.

The TRADE DEFICIT is now $879.181 billion. When will the trade deficit hit a TRILLION?

The real shame there is that good economic times offer a chance to actually reduce the debt, but his Administration looked for the quick political gain and added more currency to an already prospering economy to attain a sugar high. Generations in the future will be paying for it

And if anything, it all exposes the right's supposed principle of conservative economics and what we are seeing now their bogus concern for deficits and debt. Throwing in family values, open trade, diminished Executive power, and the traditional GOP of the last eight decades has vanished, going to be tough selling oneself as a conservative post Trump

 

[Gonzomin]

What makes you think increasing taxes would result in anything other than increased spending?

Increasing taxes is how we brought down the debt every time.

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello Dirt McGirt,

What makes you think increasing taxes would result in anything other than increased spending?

I don't buy into the hopeless mindset. We, the responsible, must prevail or our nation is toast.

We have already shown that we can eliminate the deficit and create a surplus. President Clinton did it already. What is required is a dedication to principle, and a responsible president to keep spendthrifts in Congress in check.

Republicans railed about the rising debt under Obama, but showed their true colors as soon as they got their hands on the national credit card under Trump. They must be replaced with responsible leadership. Trump is not it. He has demonstrated no fear of bankruptcy. He was a bad choice for president, and must be replaced.

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello archives,

The real shame there is that good economic times offer a chance to actually reduce the debt, but his Administration looked for the quick political gain and added more currency to an already prospering economy to attain a sugar high. Generations in the future will be paying for it

"The real shame there is that good economic times offer a chance to actually reduce the debt, but his Administration looked for the quick political gain and added more currency to an already prospering economy to attain a sugar high. Generations in the future will be paying for it"

ABSOLUTELY SPOT ON CORRECT!!!

Trump said he would eliminated the debt but he lied. Instead, he has pretended there is no such thing; and acted like the national credit card balance never needs to be paid down. He has kicked that can down the road.

The economy was already doing well under Obama. It was steadily growing in a responsible way, with a low deficit.

A good economy is when you can attack the federal debt. That is the responsible thing to do. It cannot be done during a bad economy. A bad economy always runs the debt up because that's when you have to pay unemployment benefits on reduced revenue.

Trump is being completely irresponsible with the debt. If you are turning a blind eye to the debt now, you will have your head snapped back during the next recession. Can you even picture $30 Trillion in debt? The USA will be in serious financial trouble then, and it will all have been CAUSED BY TRUMP. Mark my words. Low taxes for the rich is like fools gold. We need to be paying more into the system and reducing the deficit NOW, while we can.

And if anything, it all exposes the right's supposed principle of conservative economics and what we are seeing now their bogus concern for deficits and debt. Throwing in family values, open trade, diminished Executive power, and the traditional GOP of the last eight decades has vanished, going to be tough selling oneself as a conservative post Trump

Trump is totally irresponsible with the federal debt. 'Sugar High.' That's the best description of how he is handling it. Such a shame to see so much foolishness so widespread.

You would think we would have learned our lesson after the Great Recession.

Trump appears determined to create a greater one.

We could be on the verge of the Trump Depression.

 

[Sirthinksalot]

Our economy is propped up by constantly rising debt which cannot be maintained.

We are not taxing the rich enough to carry the rest or balance the budget. Not even close.

A Trillion dollar deficit for 329 million people can be reduced to simple math.

$1,000,000,000,000 / 329,000,000 = $3039.51 per person.

Obviously, every earner in the USA cannot come up with 3K for every person in their household.

That's how much taxes would have to be raised to balance the current budget.

It is not sustainable.

Debt vs GDP is growing.

That means our economy is based on constantly increasing the amount of debt compared to the size of our economy.

Gross debt / GDP ratio is now 105.45%.

US Debt Clock

Keep an eye on that. What happens if we allow that to continue growing?

Can we sustain a debt of 200% of our GDP? 400%? 1000% ???

Where do you draw the line?

Obviously we cannot allow this ratio, Debt/GDP, to constantly rise.

We lean on debt when we need to - to get us through bad times.

Using it to artificially pump up the economy during good times is irresponsible.

The Trump tax cut was irresponsible.

The longer it takes before we admit that, the deeper the hole we dig.

We cannot have an economy which depends on that level of rising debt. It's not just the amount of debt. It is the rate at which it is rising that is alarming.

Hi Politalker,

You know there are other, more effective ways to reduce the debt and deficit than increasing tax rates. The most obvious is to reduce spending. The other is to increase revenue by increasing the size of the overall economy and by spurring economic activity. Taxing the rich never works. They have the means to hire smart people to find loopholes and such. The tax cuts were a good thing, because they stimulated economic activity and growth. They also made our tax climate more attractive to businesses.

And the exploding Student Loan debt is also going in the wrong direction. That punishes success. We need to reward doing well in school, not saddle them with crushing debt. That hurts the economy. Then when they get a job they can't afford to buy anything. They are too busy paying off their loans.

The student loan debt crisis is the fault of parents and teachers who convinced kids that the only way to be successful was to get a college degree and worse, that any old degree would do. Students who took out $100,000 in loans to get an engineering degree made a good investment. Students who took out $100,000 in loans to get a degree in fields with no potential to make money made a very bad investment. We did not "saddle them with crushing debt". They did that to themselves, while many of their parents and teachers were complicit in the foolishness. It is not the fault of taxpayers that these students made their foolish choices and it is not incumbent upon us to spend our hard earned money to bail them out. Imagine the frustration of say an electrician or carpenter who never went to college who has to pay higher taxes on behalf of some goof who got a degree in African Women's Art and now can only find a job at Starbucks. It's baloney and we should reject any such proposal.

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello again Sirthinksalot,

Hi Politalker,

You know there are other, more effective ways to reduce the debt and deficit than increasing tax rates. The most obvious is to reduce spending.

Oh yes, I understand that. I have looked at reducing spending. There are 2 important issues with that approach.

1. There are most certainly expenditures in the federal budget that I believe we could do without. I bet everybody could think of some federal expenditures they believe are a waste of resources. Here's the thing. The lists don't match. What one person would like to cut is important to somebody else. And what that other person wants to cut is not agreeable to the first. There IS no area of federal spending that everyone agrees should be cut.

2. No matter what is cut, that translates into lost jobs and increased unemployment. Most federal spending supports workers. Cutting federal spending not only hurts the economy but it also reduces revenue because those workers were paying taxes on their income which would be lost.

It is certainly possible to identify some federal spending that most agree could be cut, and we can stand to have a few more job seekers on unemployment, but there is simply nowhere near enough of that to make a significant reduction of the deficit between revenue and spending.

The other is to increase revenue by increasing the size of the overall economy and by spurring economic activity.

True. And the economy has expanded and generated more revenue. Unfortunately, the reduction of revenue from cutting taxes on the rich and on business has resulted in an increase of the deficit. The economy has not grown enough to offset the tax cuts. This was exactly what Democrats said would happen when they opposed the tax cut. They were right. Few Republicans even TRIED to claim the GDP would grow so much it would make up for the shortfall. Most of them KNEW it wouldn't. But they voted for it anyway because Trump had failed to get ANY meaningful legislation passed after having wasted so much time and failed on health care.

Taxing the rich never works.

Of course taxing the rich more works. It works very well. Virtually every other major industrialized nation works that way.

They have the means to hire smart people to find loopholes and such.

Then the thing to do is for the government to hire smart people to identify the loopholes and for Congress to close them.

The tax cuts were a good thing, because they stimulated economic activity and growth. They also made our tax climate more attractive to businesses.

That may be, but it is an irresponsible approach that does not address the debt. Thus it is destined to be a short-term expansion, followed by an inevitable nasty contraction. What goes up must come down. The tax cut is like a sugar high for the economy. It won't last, and it is going to have a nasty low on it's heels. The Trump tax cut was irresponsible and has resulted in a trillion dollar deficit. All that is doing is giving us a temporary bump in the economy. We are living large on the national credit card. The outwardly appearance is that of a thriving economy. Too bad it is just not sustainable like that. Enjoy it while you can, but be ready to pull everything out of the market fast when the crash comes. I figure wait until the DOW is at about 15K before getting back in.