We're a pro-choice nation

TOP said:
Have you ever seen an ultrasound? He or she does exist... when a woman has a miscarriage she loses a child... sometimes the baby does not survive in the womb
... that's because for a number of genetic or health reasons it does not survive and at that time if the woman doesn't naturally miscarry the baby must be removed... but if the baby is intentionally terminated then it is a life ended... a life that would have been born had it been allowed to continue to develop... I don't necessarily refer to it as murder I never have but it is the ending of a growing little human..
The desire of most people who are pro-life is that the number of the decisions to terminate these babies would drop significantly..... abortion should not be birth control or just a decision made for convenience or selfishness... there are not 600,000 "oops" a year...
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Indeed, TOP.

When a mother decides to kill her living infant in the womb, she has made a conscious decision to end a life.

Abortion results in a dead infant.

There are about 24 states that ban abortion. It’s a state legislature (elected by the people) decision. What could be more democratic than that?
 
TOP said:
Have you ever seen an ultrasound? He or she does exist... when a woman has a miscarriage she loses a child... sometimes the baby does not survive in the womb
... that's because for a number of genetic or health reasons it does not survive and at that time if the woman doesn't naturally miscarry the baby must be removed... but if the baby is intentionally terminated then it is a life ended... a life that would have been born had it been allowed to continue to develop... I don't necessarily refer to it as murder I never have but it is the ending of a growing little human..
The desire of most people who are pro-life is that the number of the decisions to terminate these babies would drop significantly..... abortion should not be birth control or just a decision made for convenience or selfishness... there are not 600,000 "oops" a year...
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We've agreed to disagree on this...but we can still comment on posts.

The notion of whether a a zygote or fetus can reasonably be considered a living human...will NEVER be settled matter. Some people will always consider a developing germination to be a living human and some will always consider a developing germination to be something less...until the development is complete and the developed result is born.

Regardless of which it is, though, the developing germination IS TAKING PLACE in a single individual's body...and there is no way it is reasonable or correct for a government to dictate that the host must continue that arrangement if the host does not want to do so.

It is reprehensible to suppose government can do that.

All of the people here who are saying that it is murder should be saying that we should never got to war also...no matter if another country attacks us. We should not defend ourselves, because EVERY war will result in innocent people, including new born babies, toddlers, and young kids being killed.

It happens.

If a pregnant woman decides to terminate the pregnancy occurring in her own body...SHE SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO DO SO. No laws should be passed that says she has lost control over her body and that she must do as the government requires with regard to her pregnancy. And she must be allowed to do so with adequate, safe medical assistance.

By the way, that does not make me a murderer...or a person who condones murder. That makes me an advocate for a woman's right to choose on this issue.
 
The unborn infant is a separate person with its own separate heart, lungs, DNA.

DNA
nounBIOCHEMISTRY
noun: DNA

A self-replicating material that is present in nearly all living organisms as the main constituent of chromosomes. It is the carrier of genetic information.
the fundamental and distinctive characteristics or qualities of someone or something, especially when regarded as unchangeable.

When you kill an unborn child, you kill a distinct, separate life.
 
Earl said:
The unborn infant is a separate person with its own separate heart, lungs, DNA.

DNA
nounBIOCHEMISTRY
noun: DNA

A self-replicating material that is present in nearly all living organisms as the main constituent of chromosomes. It is the carrier of genetic information.
the fundamental and distinctive characteristics or qualities of someone or something, especially when regarded as unchangeable.

When you kill an unborn child, you kill a distinct, separate life.
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When you drop a bomb on a city...you kill lots of innocent people...including infants, toddlers, and children. THEY DEFINITELY ARE LIVING HUMANS.

An embryo or a fetus can be considered, by some people with an agenda, to be a living human also. But those same people do not extend their agenda to say that they oppose all wars because of that.

The same people with that agenda are often the people shouting their opposition to government being too powerful...yet they are willing to allow government to dictate to a pregnant woman that she must carry that pregnancy to term.

The people who oppose a woman's right to end a pregnancy occurring in her own body...are hypocrites of the first order.
 
The unborn infant is a separate person with its own separate heart, lungs, DNA.

DNA
nounBIOCHEMISTRY
noun: DNA

A self-replicating material that is present in nearly all living organisms as the main constituent of chromosomes. It is the carrier of genetic information.
the fundamental and distinctive characteristics or qualities of someone or something, especially when regarded as unchangeable.

When you kill an unborn child, you kill a distinct, separate life.
 
When you drop a bomb on a city...you kill lots of innocent people...including infants, toddlers, and children. THEY DEFINITELY ARE LIVING HUMANS.

An embryo or a fetus can be considered, by some people with an agenda, to be a living human also. But those same people do not extend their agenda to say that they oppose all wars because of that.

The same people with that agenda are often the people shouting their opposition to government being too powerful...yet they are willing to allow government to dictate to a pregnant woman that she must carry that pregnancy to term.

The people who oppose a woman's right to end a pregnancy occurring in her own body...are hypocrites of the first order.
 
A pregnancy is a life developing... the goal is for the decision to abort to be one that has to happen far less often... it shouldn't be birth control...it shouldn't be a decision made purely because of convenience or selfishness... 600,000 + women a year are not all examples of "sometimes birth control fails"... if you know that it's not the right time for you to have a baby then make every effort not to conceive one...
 
TOP said:
A pregnancy is a life developing... the goal is for the decision to abort be one that happens far less often... it shouldn't be birth control it shouldn't be a decision made purely because of convenience or selfishness... 600,000 + women a year are not all examples of "sometimes birth control fails"...
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TOP, women who have unplanned pregnancies when they're not of a disposition to be ok with them
are essentially screw ups, right?
If not, they're rape victims. It has to be one or the other.

Why would you want some kid relegated to having a screw-up mom?
Does that honestly sound like a better choice than abortion to you?

I had parents who wanted me and supported me, were good to me,
and sometimes, on a bad day, even I feel pissed at them for getting me involved with this shit show.
This might even be one of those days; they happen with more frequency here in my dotage.

I guess there are EXTREME differences in the way people see things,
but at least, I don't condone the cruelty of sticking a kid with a hair-brained mom,
and in all probability, a dad that he/she will never know.
 
NiftyNiblick said:
TOP, women who have unplanned pregnancies when they're not of a disposition to be ok with them
are essentially screw ups, right?
If not, they're rape victims. It has to be one or the other.

Why would you want some kid relegated to having a screw-up mom?
Does that honestly sound like a better choice than abortion to you?

I had parents who wanted me and supported me, were good to me,
and sometimes, on a bad day, even I feel pissed at them for getting me involved with this
This might even be one of those days; they happen with more frequency here in my dotage.

I guess there are EXTREME differences in the way people see things,
but at least, I don't condone the cruelty of sticking a kid with a hair-brained mom,
and in all probability, a dad that he/she will never know.
Click to expand...

I think we've already talked about this... if you think that every child with an imperfect parent would have been better off aborted than there wouldn't be too many around... I know that you might be okay with that ...I, on the other hand, would not...is every unplanned pregnancy a screw up?... I guess you could say that it might have been... but it sure wouldn't be too difficult to have less of them if people took a little more responsibility... and I know a ton of people who had them and didn't abort their child...A rape is a tragedy... still a child though that is a part of the mother but I can and do sympathize with some women being unable to deal with a child like that knowing how they were conceived... I also imagine there are women who choose to keep their child and somehow find a way to deal with that.. each of those situations are very unique... But once again... the wish is to have less situations where a woman even needs to consider an abortion... why isn't that the issue that everyone is focusing on? That doesn't seem to be much of a concern...and it should be... (It would be lovely if all parents were like yours and mine.. each and every day I remind the parents that I talk to how important it is to want..and love...and support their children... a lot of the times it helps.... (our prom was Saturday night... there were a lot of kids who needed assistance from staff and the community to make it possible for them to attend... times are tough now but because parents sometimes can't afford everything for their kids doesn't mean they love them less... or that they would have been better off aborted... just saying)
 
Originally Posted by PostmodernProphet View Post
Michigan passed a constitutional amendment preserving abortion irrespective of fetal viability......in other words, up until birth.......

If these far left Democratic Socialist loons in Michigan did not want the option of abortion up to birth, why did they pass the amendment allowing it?
 
Earl posted that abortion is murder.

One thing we know for certain (and has been pointed out several times by several people) is that a legal abortion cannot be murder. A murder is the illegal killing of a human by another human.

Of course, Earl does not know what he is talking about, so I guess the error should be excused.
 
TOP said:
I think we've already talked about this... if you think that every child with an imperfect parent would have been better off aborted than there wouldn't be too many around... I know that you might be okay with that ...I, on the other hand, would not...is every unplanned pregnancy a screw up?... I guess you could say that it might have been... but it sure wouldn't be too difficult to have less of them if people took a little more responsibility... and I know a ton of people who had them and didn't abort their child...A rape is a tragedy... still a child though that is a part of the mother but I can and do sympathize with some women being unable to deal with a child like that knowing how they were conceived... I also imagine there are women who choose to keep their child and somehow find a way to deal with that.. each of those situations are very unique... But once again... the wish is to have less situations where a woman even needs to consider an abortion... why isn't that the issue that everyone is focusing on? That doesn't seem to be much of a concern...and it should be... (It would be lovely if all parents were like yours and mine.. each and every day I remind the parents that I talk to how important it is to want..and love...and support their children... a lot of the times it helps.... (our prom was Saturday night... there were a lot of kids who needed assistance from staff and the community to make it possible for them to attend... times are tough now but because parents sometimes can't afford everything for their kids doesn't mean they love them less... or that they would have been better off aborted... just saying)
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It goes way, way beyond the abortion issue. TOP.
It goes to our very beliefs about life itself.
I don't believe
nor have I ever believed
that life has absolute value.

I can't be sure, but I think that that is some kind of religious concept,
and I'm, of course, unafflicted with religious superstitions of any kind.

I believe that life must be valued, like everything else, in qualitative terms.

Thus, any life in which the rewards inadequately compensate the travails
is a NET NEGATIVE EXPERIENCE,
and a net negative experience is an experience not worth having.
It is, in fact, one worth avoiding.

If, for some reason, you believe that even a miserable life is worth something,
then logically,
that would carry over to the abortion issue as well.

I, in all sincerity and in good conscience, go all the way to the other side.

I believe in legal euthanasia for lives that are excessively inconvenient, at least from the point of view of those living them..

I see only cruelty in allowing people to suffer, even forcing them to, when they don't have to.

In other words, it's just as much--at least as much--a moral issue for me as it is for you.

Not all moral compasses point to the same true north,
and people don't back down from moral stances. Those ARE in fact absolute.

That's why I believe that red state America and blue state America don't belong in the same republic.
Traditional Middle America values and sophisticated cosmopolitan values share very little overlap.

I know that you don't agree with me, but I hope that you at least understand from where I'm coming.
 
PostmodernProphet said:
so of the eleven people you know you're covered.......forget about the other 70 million demmycrats......
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I know a lot more than 11 people. That was a pretty dumb post.

So you know 70 million people who want abortion up to birth? Where are they all. And how did you poll them?
 
NiftyNiblick said:
It goes way, way beyond the abortion issue. TOP.
It goes to our very beliefs about life itself.
I don't believe
nor have I ever believed
that life has absolute value.

I can't be sure, but I think that that is some kind of religious concept,
and I'm, of course, unafflicted with religious superstitions of any kind.

I believe that life must be valued, like everything else, in qualitative terms.

Thus, any life in which the rewards inadequately compensate the travails
is a NET NEGATIVE EXPERIENCE,
and a net negative experience is an experience not worth having.
It is, in fact, one worth avoiding.

If, for some reason, you believe that even a miserable life is worth something,
then logically,
that would carry over to the abortion issue as well.

I, in all sincerity and in good conscience, go all the way to the other side.

I believe in legal euthanasia for lives that are excessively inconvenient, at least from the point of view of those living them..

I see only cruelty in allowing people to suffer, even forcing them to, when they don't have to.

In other words, it's just as much--at least as much--a moral issue for me as it is for you.

Not all moral compasses point to the same true north,
and people don't back down from moral stances. Those ARE in fact absolute.

That's why I believe that red state America and blue state America don't belong in the same republic.
Traditional Middle America values and sophisticated cosmopolitan values share very little overlap.

I know that you don't agree with me, but I hope that you at least understand from where I'm coming.
Click to expand...

I will always respect your opinion...I so appreciate a civil, adult discussion without name calling or threats...;)...We couldn't be any farther apart when it comes to beliefs, but considering I don't work with you or live in your home, that should never pose any problem...
(I would approve you as a foster or adopter for any dog...there's not much higher praise from me...I'm super picky... On the other hand, I probably wouldn't ask you to speak at one of our HS school assemblies, or work with our mobile health and pregnancy clinics...though I do think you'd be an asset to any boxing program...in many way....you might even change your mind about kids and life/traditions and Mid American values...;))
 
TOP said:
I will always respect your opinion...I so appreciate a civil, adult discussion without name calling or threats...;)...We couldn't be any farther apart when it comes to beliefs, but considering I don't work with you or live in your home, that should never pose any problem...
(I would approve you as a foster or adopter for any dog...there's not much higher praise from me...I'm super picky... On the other hand, I probably wouldn't ask you to speak at one of our HS school assemblies, or work with our mobile health and pregnancy clinics...though I do think you'd be an asset to any boxing program...in many way....you might even change your mind about kids and life/traditions and Mid American values...;))
Click to expand...

I'll take the dog comment as very high praise. I have a dog.
My youngest child, in contrast, is 46, so of course,
most of any counseling involved goes from her to me, not vise versa. .
 
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