We're a pro-choice nation

TOP said:
There are extremists on both sides, unfortunately...There are also people who are fine with it at any stage....for any reason...there are people who use it to select a gender...there are people who think a Down's Syndrome child doesn't deserve a chance to live...
I think the laws are meant to send the message that people should consider adopting "everyone's position" as a goal...600,000 plus abortions a year is a horrific statistic...one that everyone should want to see drop sharply... If a woman doesn't want children, it's not terribly difficult...
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There are over 440,000 kids in foster care in America. There are 8 million worldwide. Adoption is not the answer.
 
Nordberg said:
There are over 440,000 kids in foster care in America. There are 8 million worldwide. Adoption is not the answer.
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You show your ignorance. Those kids are from broken homes or they got into trouble. There is a waiting list of parents waiting to adopt new borns
 
ptif219 said:
It is alive
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The abortion question in Jewish Talmudic law begins with an examination of the
fetus' legal status. For this the Talmud has a phrase, ubar yerekh imo, a
counterpart of the Latin pars viscera matris. The fetus is deemed a "part of
its mother" rather than an independent entity.
 
ptif219 said:
It is a child. No abortion a child is born. Abortion no child so abortion killed the child
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Often, it is not a child. Often it is little more than a clump of cells.

An acorn is not an oak tree no matter how much you want it to be.
 
Any pregnancy is going to result in the birth of a child if it is not terminated...naturally, or intentionally... So that "clump of cells" is a child growing in the mother's womb....from day one...
It is something to always keep in mind, especially when a woman makes the decision to terminate it...Many will say it doesn't "matter"...but even the strongest woman is going to have to understand that the decision will be forever with her...that's why it is in the best interests of everyone involved to find a way to avoid having to make that call... this isn't a condemnation, it's just a fact...
It's a bit more than just "doing what must be done"...and it's not even similar to a squirrel digging up an acorn and carrying it off...
 
TOP said:
Any pregnancy is going to result in the birth of a child if it is not terminated...naturally, or intentionally... So that "clump of cells" is a child growing in the mother's womb....from day one...
It is something to always keep in mind, especially when a woman makes the decision to terminate it...Many will say it doesn't "matter"...but even the strongest woman is going to have to understand that the decision will be forever with her...that's why it is in the best interests of everyone involved to find a way to avoid having to make that call... this isn't a condemnation, it's just a fact...
It's a bit more than just "doing what must be done"...and it's not even similar to a squirrel digging up an acorn and carrying it off...
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Often it is just a lump of cells...regardless of whether or not "if left to grow" it will become a living human.

An acorn, if left to grow, will become an oak tree. That does not make the acorn an oak tree.

The clump of cells...even after it becomes a fetus, is totally dependent on one body hosting it. And if the person whose body it is decides it wants to end that hosting...it should be allowed.

NO ONE IS GOING TO STOP ABORTION. That is not what this battle is truly about. This battle is about whether or not an abortion will be performed safely by competent medical people in a reasonably safe environment...or by not particularly competent people in an alleyway, hallway, or apartment.
 
Frank Apisa said:
Often it is just a lump of cells...regardless of whether or not "if left to grow" it will become a living human.

An acorn, if left to grow, will become an oak tree. That does not make the acorn an oak tree.

The clump of cells...even after it becomes a fetus, is totally dependent on one body hosting it. And if the person whose body it is decides it wants to end that hosting...it should be allowed.

NO ONE IS GOING TO STOP ABORTION. That is not what this battle is truly about. This battle is about whether or not an abortion will be performed safely by competent medical people in a reasonably safe environment...or by not particularly competent people in an alleyway, hallway, or apartment.
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So you agree...those cells will become a child if they are not disturbed...and terminating that ends that possibility...it's not possible to "ignore" that...The real battle is to try to have less abortions, many less...I'm sure you agree...and that's not happening...What do you suggest? What would be your cutoff point? Or do you feel that there should be no limits, if the woman makes that "decision"? What if she doesn't find out she's pregnant until she's 4 or 5 months along? What if she finds out she's having a baby with Down's Syndrome? Or decides she doesn't want another girl?
This isn't a decision that should be taken lightly...and very often, it is...That's where most of the disagreement is when it comes to the procedure, especially when it is literally obvious that that a baby is growing......I agree...Abortions will never "stop"...I agree if necessary, they should be available and safe...
But abortion is not birth control or "health care", unless something is wrong...somehow, people need to understand that... 600,000 plus each year is out of control....
 
A perfect day to go golfing, btw...at least here...finally, the rain has stopped...just saying...
 
TOP said:
So you agree...those cells will become a child if they are not disturbed...and terminating that ends that possibility...it's not possible to "ignore" that...The real battle is to try to have less abortions, many less...I'm sure you agree...and that's not happening...What do you suggest? What would be your cutoff point? Or do you feel that there should be no limits, if the woman makes that "decision"? What if she doesn't find out she's pregnant until she's 4 or 5 months along? What if she finds out she's having a baby with Down's Syndrome? Or decides she doesn't want another girl?
This isn't a decision that should be taken lightly...and very often, it is...That's where most of the disagreement is when it comes to the procedure, especially when it is literally obvious that that a baby is growing......I agree...Abortions will never "stop"...I agree if necessary, they should be available and safe...
But abortion is not birth control or "health care", unless something is wrong...somehow, people need to understand that... 600,000 plus each year is out of control....
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I hate the notion of abortion as much as you...but the woman in whose body the pregnancy is occurring MUST HAVE THE FINAL SAY on this issue.

As long as the opposition side insists that there is a living human from the second germination occurs...many on this side of the issue will argue for an abortion until the very end of the pregnancy. When your side becomes a bit more realistic...perhaps our side will be able to do the same thing.
 
Frank Apisa said:
I hate the notion of abortion as much as you...but the woman in whose body the pregnancy is occurring MUST HAVE THE FINAL SAY on this issue.

As long as the opposition side insists that there is a living human from the second germination occurs...many on this side of the issue will argue for an abortion until the very end of the pregnancy. When your side becomes a bit more realistic...perhaps our side will be able to do the same thing.
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My "side" is being very realistic...I'm still not sure what your "side" is if you say you hate abortion as well...other than you just said the woman should have the "final" say...that I do agree with...that is not the same as the "only" say... I certainly ope that arguing for abortion until the end is not because of the belief that a potential life begins at conception....No one is arguing that at 6 weeks a baby could survive...but it is a developing baby...
That's just a fact..
It's back to "unwanted" or "wanted"...which is the biggest division among "sides"....
That doesn't make it a clump of cells, as opposed to a child developing...the ultrasound will show the same picture, wanted or unwanted...
Again, the goal is to cut down on abortions as much as possible...look at the numbers...https://www.kff.org/womens-health-policy/report/key-facts-on-abortion-in-the-united-states/
 
TOP said:
My "side" is being very realistic...I'm still not sure what your "side" is if you say you hate abortion as well...other than you just said the woman should have the "final" say...that I do agree with...that is not the same as the "only" say... I certainly ope that arguing for abortion until the end is not because of the belief that a potential life begins at conception....No one is arguing that at 6 weeks a baby could survive...but it is a developing baby...
That's just a fact..
It's back to "unwanted" or "wanted"...which is the biggest division among "sides"....
That doesn't make it a clump of cells, as opposed to a child developing...the ultrasound will show the same picture, wanted or unwanted...
Again, the goal is to cut down on abortions as much as possible...look at the numbers...https://www.kff.org/womens-health-policy/report/key-facts-on-abortion-in-the-united-states/
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"Potential life" has absolute value to some and is a life ruining threat to others.
One group shouldn't be involved in the other's decision making.

It's very regretful that all sexually active people aren't more responsible about contraception,
but isn't the conservative element mostly responsible for that as well?

Who remembers the fuckwit Dubya preaching "abstinence" to an age group with raging hormones?
How many fundamentalists protested the distribution of condoms from school nurses?
How many "born agains " shield their young children from all sexual discussion
and then send naïve kids into the world to become victims of poor judgement at the very least
and exploitation at the worst?

I don't think that there's any doubt which side bears the greater culpability.
But that's also the side that takes the misogynist "pro life" position on abortion.
 
A dead child is the result of an abortion. The child is no longer living.

The side that bears the greater culpability is the mother who decides to kill her own child and the doctor who kills the child.
 
NiftyNiblick said:
"Potential life" has absolute value to some and is a life ruining threat to others.
One group shouldn't be involved in the other's decision making.

It's very regretful that all sexually active people aren't more responsible about contraception,
but isn't the conservative element mostly responsible for that as well?

Who remembers the fuckwit Dubya preaching "abstinence" to an age group with raging hormones?
How many fundamentalists protested the distribution of condoms from school nurses?
How many "born agains " shield their young children from all sexual discussion
and then send naïve kids into the world to become victims of poor judgement at the very least
and exploitation at the worst?

I don't think that there's any doubt which side bears the greater culpability.
But that's also the side that takes the misogynist "pro life" position on abortion.
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There's no lack of birth control or sex education these days... and pretty much everyone has to be involved for things to work... Our school even had a mobile unit that came and provided Healthcare including birth control for quite some time... many mobile units still exist... Schools are quite different than the ones you mentioned now just FYI ...Bottom line...The people responsible are the people who aren't taking care to create unwanted children... and this includes the ones who choose not to abort but have five children they can't afford... I'm a reasonably sure that conservatives or pri lifers are not the only ones to blame... I don't think I missed your points but if I did let me know...
 
TOP said:
I'm a reasonably sure that conservatives or pro lifers are not the only ones to blame....
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I'm sure that they're not.
My opinion is that they're predominantly the ones to blame....

particularly on the observation that fundamentalist Christians in the south and mid-west
often have horrific parenting skills. Banning books tends to be a dead giveaway.
 
NiftyNiblick said:
I'm sure that they're not.
My opinion is that they're predominantly the ones to blame....

particularly on the observation that fundamentalist Christians in the south and mid-west
often have horrific parenting skills. Banning books tends to be a dead giveaway.
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There are a lot of people with horrific parenting skills...all over... Speaking of books to this day I still get lots of donations... for the first time in my life there were books that I could not and did not... donate... I have a "list" now... Some books are just not school appropriate... I do offer these books privately to parents... needless to say I still have a couple of boxes... most of these were donated because they didn't sell well...
 
guno said:
The abortion question in Jewish Talmudic law begins with an examination of the
fetus' legal status. For this the Talmud has a phrase, ubar yerekh imo, a
counterpart of the Latin pars viscera matris. The fetus is deemed a "part of
its mother" rather than an independent entity.
Click to expand...

Does not matter it is still the mothers child growing inside of her. Abortion is a mother killing her child
 
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