"We keep marrying other species and ethnics " - Fox News Host

Dixie said:
Sorry, but after conception, nothing else has to happen for you to be human life. You are a unique human life in the state of being, therefore, a "human being" at point of conception. You can say you are a human being at "zygote" phase, but you are what you are, that doesn't change. It's not insult to humankind to admit what biology says, it's called being honest. What you are doing, is propping up a lie and misrepresentation. You want to claim a human being is something else, when that contradicts biological fact.
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The zygote the eventually developed into me wasn't a person.
 
Dixie said:
"personhood" seems to be a "criteria" some people have set on human beings or human life. I think it is highly subjective, and totally irrelevant to whether something is or isn't human life. In 1830, black people were not considered "persons" by our government. So this whole canard about "personhood" is nothing more than an attempt to dodge the obvious.
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Wow, that's quite a question dodge, Dix.
 
Dixie said:
Apparently the "more intelligent" of you, don't comprehend the most basic of biological facts. Because you keep calling human life by other names, making absurd distinctions about the phase or condition of human life, as if that somehow magically changes biology and renders it meaningless. If anyone else attempted to refute biological fact that way, you'd call them a 'knuckledragger" ...but you people are SMART, so you can't be one of those, can you?
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A child born without a brain is human life. It is not a person.
 
Dixie said:
A seed is a seed. A human being is a human being, not a seed.

Biological classification of when human life begins, tells us it happens at point of conception. Nothing further has to happen for a human being to exist. You may say the human being is in a certain state, 'classification', phase, or condition... but it IS what it IS. Biology has concluded this... it is conclusive... beyond any shadow of doubt... not up for debate... not an "argument" from my perspective... a biological FACT!
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By saying "human being", you are implying personhood, and a zygote or an embryo is not a person.
 
Biology say it is human, and it is living, otherwise you wouldn't have to terminate it.

You can make all sorts of delineations about what phase or stage the human life is in, but you can't refute biological fact. Sorry Waterhead... epic FAIL!
 
Dixie said:
Biology say it is human, and it is living, otherwise you wouldn't have to terminate it.
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Biology doesn't have anything to do with this. The argument is philosophical, not scientific, and I bet you'd be hard pressed to find a biologist who wasn't pro-choice. Pretending the anti-choice position is determined by scientific fact is disingenuous and gets you absolutely nowhere.
 
Watermark said:
Biology doesn't have anything to do with this. The argument is philosophical, not scientific, and I bet you'd be hard pressed to find a biologist who wasn't pro-choice. Pretending the anti-choice position is determined by scientific fact is disingenuous and gets you absolutely nowhere.
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Listen to yourself.

"Reject science and take the Biologist's idea of philosophy as the right."

Basically the left's argument in this thread is, "Science be damned! I don't care if it is a human life, it hasn't received the 'essence of human' that comes only when it takes its first breath of air!"
 
Damocles said:
Listen to yourself.

"Reject science and take the Biologist's idea of philosophy as the right."
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No. I said that this is not determined by science, and that if it even were, why would all the Biologists be on my side?

Excellent summarizing skills though. Just take what I say, eliminate all of my meaning, implant your own distorted view, and say that is me listening to myself. Great process there. Effective debating.

Damocles said:
Basically the left's argument in this thread is, "Science be damned! I don't care if it is a human life, it hasn't received the 'essence of human' that comes only when it takes its first breath of air!"
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This argument is not a scientific one.
 
Watermark said:
No. I said that this is not determined by science, and that if it even were, why would all the Biologists be on my side?

Excellent summarizing skills though. Just take what I say, eliminate all of my meaning, implant your own distorted view, and say that is me listening to myself. Great process there. Effective debating.



This argument is not a scientific one.
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Yeah, we should base all laws on Watermark's philosophy... Because that is nothing like basing them on religious philosophies...

Ugh.

Listen to yourself!
 
Damocles said:
Yeah, we should base all laws on Watermark's philosophy... Because that is nothing like basing them on religious philosophies...

Ugh.

Listen to yourself!
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I am listening to myself. Clearly you are not listening to me, because you aren't responding to anything I'm saying with anything that even resembles anything else that makes sense.

That is all.

Signing out,

WM
 
PostmodernProphet said:
okay let's keep the biology honest....what is living inside the shell of a fertilized egg is a chicken....an egg is an egg, just like a human woman's egg is an egg and a sperm is a sperm......
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So a carton of fertilized egs should be sold as chicken by the pound even when the only difference between them and unfertilzed eggs is a blood spot?
 
Watermark said:
If you take Penicillin you kill a living thing; what's your point?
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it logically follows, when you kill an unborn child you are killing a living thing....that living thing is unarguably human....that human can be identified as a unique individual by means of DNA analysis....under our laws we are not supposed to deny rights to an individual based upon standards which are arbitrary and capricious......there is no standard by which you can distinguish between an unborn and a birthed child which is NOT arbitrary and capricious.....therefore it is wrong that we deny rights to the unborn that we extend to the born......that's my point.....when you say the unborn is not a person you are merely announcing the arbitrary and capricious standard....there is no scientific basis upon which to sustain that standard.....
 
Watermark said:
Biology doesn't have anything to do with this. The argument is philosophical, not scientific, and I bet you'd be hard pressed to find a biologist who wasn't pro-choice. Pretending the anti-choice position is determined by scientific fact is disingenuous and gets you absolutely nowhere.
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wasn't there something on this board regarding PWNage?....

from a current biology textbook, ....

"Human development begins at fertilization, the process during which a male gamete or sperm (spermatozoo developmentn) unites with a female gamete or oocyte (ovum) to form a single cell called a zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell marked the beginning of each of us as a unique individual."

"A zygote is the beginning of a new human being (i.e., an embryo)."

Keith L. Moore, The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 7th edition. Philadelphia, PA: Saunders, 2003. pp. 16, 2.

"Development begins with fertilization, the process by which the male gamete, the sperm, and the femal gamete, the oocyte, unite to give rise to a zygote."

T.W. Sadler, Langman's Medical Embryology, 10th edition. Philadelphia, PA: Lippincott Williams & Wilkins, 2006. p. 11.

Before We Are Born

"[The zygote], formed by the union of an oocyte and a sperm, is the beginning of a new human being."

Keith L. Moore, Before We Are Born: Essentials of Embryology, 7th edition. Philadelphia, PA: Saunders, 2008. p. 2.

Human Embryology and Teratology

"Although life is a continuous process, fertilization (which, incidentally, is not a 'moment') is a critical landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new genetically distinct human organism is formed when the chromosomes of the male and female pronuclei blend in the oocyte."

Ronan O'Rahilly and Fabiola Müller, Human Embryology and Teratology, 3rd edition. New York: Wiley-Liss, 2001. p. 8.

Human Embryology

"Human embryos begin development following the fusion of definitive male and female gametes during fertilization... This moment of zygote formation may be taken as the beginning or zero time point of embryonic development."

William J. Larsen, Essentials of Human Embryology. New York: Churchill Livingstone, 1998. pp. 1, 14.

OLDER TEACHING TEXTS ON EMBRYOLOGY / PRENATAL DEVELOPMENT

Patten's Human Embryology

"It is the penetration of the ovum by a spermatozoan and resultant mingling of the nuclear material each brings to the union that constitues the culmination of the process of fertilization and marks the initiation of the life of a new individual."

Clark Edward Corliss, Patten's Human Embryology: Elements of Clinical Development. New York: McGraw Hill, 1976. p. 30.

Biological Principles and Modern Practice of Obstetrics

"The term conception refers to the union of the male and female pronuclear elements of procreation from which a new living being develops."

"The zygote thus formed represents the beginning of a new life."

J.P. Greenhill and E.A. Friedman, Biological Principles and Modern Practice of Obstetrics. Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders, 1974. pp. 17, 23.

Pathology of the Fetus and Infant

"Every time a sperm cell and ovum unite a new being is created which is alive and will continue to live unless its death is brought about by some specific condition."

E.L. Potter and J.M. Craig, Pathology of the Fetus and the Infant, 3rd edition. Chicago: Year Book Medical Publishers, 1975. p. vii.

GENERAL AUDIENCE TEXTS ON EMBRYOLOGY / PRENATAL DEVELOPMENT

Beginning Life

"Every baby begins life within the tiny globe of the mother's egg... It is beautifully translucent and fragile and it encompasses the vital links in which life is carried from one generation to the next. Within this tiny sphere great events take place. When one of the father's sperm cells, like the ones gathered here around the egg, succeeds in penetrating the egg and becomes united with it, a new life can begin." - 13

Geraldine Lux Flanagan, Beginning Life. New York: DK, 1996. p. 13.

PRENATAL DEVELOPMENT VIDEOS

The Biology of Prenatal Development

"Biologically speaking, human development begins at fertilization."

The Biology of Prenatal Develpment, National Geographic, 2006.

In the Womb

"The two cells gradually and gracefully become one. This is the moment of conception, when an individual's unique set of DNA is created, a human signature that never existed before and will never be repeated."

In the Womb, National Geographic, 2005.
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http://www.abort73.com/index.php?/abortion/medical_testimony

"When fertilization is complete, a unique genetic human entity exists."

C. Christopher Hook, M.D.
Oncologist, Mayo Clinic, Director of Ethics Education, Mayo Graduate School of Medicine

"Science has a very simple conception of man; as soon as he has been conceived, a man is a man."

Jerome Lejeune, M.D., Ph.D.

In 1981, a United States Senate judiciary subcommittee received the following testimony from a collection of medical experts (Subcommittee on Separation of Powers to Senate Judiciary Committee S-158, Report, 97th Congress, 1st Session, 1981):

"It is incorrect to say that biological data cannot be decisive...It is scientifically correct to say that an individual human life begins at conception."

Professor Micheline Matthews-Roth
Harvard University Medical School

"I have learned from my earliest medical education that human life begins at the time of conception."

Dr. Alfred M. Bongioanni
Professor of Pediatrics and Obstetrics, University of Pennsylvania

"After fertilization has taken place a new human being has come into being. [It] is no longer a matter of taste or opinion...it is plain experimental evidence. Each individual has a very neat beginning, at conception."

Dr. Jerome LeJeune
Professor of Genetics, University of Descartes

"By all the criteria of modern molecular biology, life is present from the moment of conception."

Professor Hymie Gordon
Mayo Clinic

"The beginning of a single human life is from a biological point of view a simple and straightforward matter – the beginning is conception."

Dr. Watson A. Bowes
University of Colorado Medical School
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Socrtease said:
So a carton of fertilized egs should be sold as chicken by the pound even when the only difference between them and unfertilzed eggs is a blood spot?
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the fact that a fertilized egg is something distinguishable from a Rhode Island Red rooster doesn't mean the fertilized egg isn't a chicken....basically, you are just affirming what I stated earlier.....you want to be able to distinguish between one chicken and another, one baby and another, so you eliminate the possibility of guilt for killing it.....

so what if there is a difference between a fetus and a birthed child....is that difference significant enough that you can pretend what you are killing isn't a child?.....you need to listen to your own spokespeople....

Faye Wattleson, former head of Planned Parenthood

"I think we have deluded ourselves into believing that people don't know that abortion is killing. So any pretense that abortion is not killing is a signal of our ambivalence, a signal that we cannot say yes, it kills a fetus."
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Naomi Wolf
"Clinging to a rhetoric about abortion in which there is no life and no death, we entangle our beliefs in a series of self-delusions, fibs and evasions. And we risk becoming precisely what our critics charge us with being: callous, selfish and casually destructive men and women who share a cheapened view of human life...we need to contextualize the fight to defend abortion rights within a moral framework that admits that the death of a fetus is a real death."
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maineman said:
St. Thomas Aquinas and I disagree.
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/shrugs.....and?.....I'm not basing my position on the accessibility of "soul".....it's simply an observable scientific truth that there is no rational basis for distinguishing between an unborn child and a birthed one, and therefore, denying rights to one that are afforded to the other is arbitrary and capricious.....
 
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