such hubris/ "fledgling democracy"? that's a nice term for a corrupt state.
Is this an excuse that
"they're fighting for us. Let's be clear, the Ukrainians are fighting on our behalf. They're fighting the Russians."
warpig
- Thread starter anatta
- Start date
Is this an excuse that
"they're fighting for us. Let's be clear, the Ukrainians are fighting on our behalf. They're fighting the Russians."
anonymoose
Classical Liberal
Bill Clinton just wrote an op Ed that I thought was a pretty good counter to the argument that we made mistakes in NATO expansion.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/i-tried-to-put-russia-on-another-path/ar-AAVYglE
Fact is we don’t know what would have happened (or not) without expansion but given Putin’s nostalgia for the Soviet Union, his insecurities and paranoia my guess is he would have had no qualms about using force to reclaim past Warsaw Pact countries and former Soviet republics.
Unfortunately his propaganda is working with a sizeable portion of Russian citizens.
Spurred by Putin, Russians Turn on One Another Over the War - NYT
Paywall here. But I’m I’ll provide excerpts if requested.
BartenderElite
Verified User
Fledgling democracy is actually a nice term for a fledgling democracy - which is exactly what the Ukraine is.
"Corrupt state." Cripes. Russian propaganda.
Fun fact: Hitler and Stalin both invaded Poland and split their territory .. . including what is now Ukraine.
anonymoose
Classical Liberal
As Carl Bildt, the former Swedish prime minister and foreign minister, tweeted in December 2021, “It wasn’t NATO seeking to go East, it was former Soviet satellites and republics wishing to go West.”
Clinton?? lol
he was the impetus for NATO expansion! He also said the metric for expansion was whether Russia became democratic - then proceeded to install Yeltsin because he was a compliant stooge.
again: why are we basing our relationship (NATO expansion) to Russia on if it's a democracy or not?
We sure as hell dont care when China is a totalitarian hegemonic threat
Madeline Albright ( a notorious force for regime change - see Libya) was a hawk who came up with
R2P - which got us in the regime change business of Iraq and Libya.
Clinto also started the push for including China in the WTO - and you know what a disaster that was
So much so it was a main point of Trump's presidency; get out of the feckless WTO
and replace it with the bi-lateral he was negotiating when COVID hit
So he said.
Guno צְבִי
We fight, We win, Am Yisrael Chai
This is what is played at Putin's rally's
It was also NATO policy not to expand east -the deal with Gorby.
But NATO expansion gave these small poor east European states a monetary incentive to join
Anyways...NATO expansion and the resultant defacto expansion into Ukraine is the true cause of the war.
Ukraine was always supposed to be a "buffer state" - non-aligned.
This was the main complaint from Putin (Lavrov letters) that Biden laughed off
State Department Failed to Prevent the War. Will It Now Prevent the Peace?
https://www.justplainpolitics.com/s...Prevent-the-War-Will-It-Now-Prevent-the-Peace
^read the OP - ignore JACK's blathering any my response and you'll get a good idea of casus belli
Germany has ‘reached limit’ on arms shipments to Ukraine
Germany has almost exhausted its ability to supply Ukraine with weapons,German Defense Minister Christine Lambrecht said Saturday.
Until the Russian invasion on February 24, Germany had been reluctant for historical reasons to send weapons to Ukraine, which had been demanding them in the face of rising tensions with Moscow.
Chancellor Olaf Scholz then made a U-turn and Ukrainian forces have already received anti-tank weapons, missile launchers and surface-to-air missiles from Berlin.
But the conflict in Ukraine has also cast a spotlight on the “alarming” state of the Bundeswehr, according to the Bundestag’s defense commissioner, Eva Hoegl, while one of the top brass spoke of an army “more or less dry”.
Ukrainian Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba on Thursday urged NATO members to quickly supply him with more military equipment, including heavy weapons.
https://www.thelocal.de/20220409/germany-has-reached-limit-on-arms-shipments-to-ukraine-admits-defence-minister/
Germany has almost exhausted its ability to supply Ukraine with weapons,German Defense Minister Christine Lambrecht said Saturday.
Until the Russian invasion on February 24, Germany had been reluctant for historical reasons to send weapons to Ukraine, which had been demanding them in the face of rising tensions with Moscow.
Chancellor Olaf Scholz then made a U-turn and Ukrainian forces have already received anti-tank weapons, missile launchers and surface-to-air missiles from Berlin.
But the conflict in Ukraine has also cast a spotlight on the “alarming” state of the Bundeswehr, according to the Bundestag’s defense commissioner, Eva Hoegl, while one of the top brass spoke of an army “more or less dry”.
Ukrainian Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba on Thursday urged NATO members to quickly supply him with more military equipment, including heavy weapons.
https://www.thelocal.de/20220409/germany-has-reached-limit-on-arms-shipments-to-ukraine-admits-defence-minister/
He signed the agreement that stripped Ukraine of its nuclear arsenal.
And that is trump's ambassador to Ukraine.
By fighting for themselves, they are making clear to Putin his aggression comes with costs. This is much like when the Afghans fought the Soviets for themselves with our help to help us.
Well EU expansion was the more important one, and neither were done as part of a war, proxy or not. It was done to encourage Ukraine to develop a modern, Western economy. The idea that if we had prevented the Ukrainians from having nice things, we would somehow stop Putin from trying to destroy them is wrong headed.
Putin is very much fighting against democracy. He is very upset that Ukraine is becoming a democracy, which is why he attacked. You keep telling us that if we had only tried to block Ukraine from becoming a democracy then Russia would have no reason to attack is besides the point.
Putin has been making very clear threats towards NATO. It is silly to even argue that.
First they came for the Ukrainians...
The issue was that it was becoming less corrupt. EU and NATO membership was held out as a way to have them make their government less corrupt. Putin was put in danger as the Ukrainians showed that Ukraine, and by extension Russia, could be less corrupt.
The war is because they are a fledgling democracy, and you are arguing that it could have been prevented if we only destroyed the fledgling democracy before Putin did.
It is like burning down your neighbor's house to prevent looters from stealing from it. Your neighbor is not going to thank you.
So you say.