War and the Warrior

bravo said:
Odd, you didn't mention Obama and his sending our military to bomb, kill and maim Libyans that were not even a remote threat or danger to the US US citizens.....
guess his killing of another nations citizens was just one of those things....

No mention of Clinton and his ordering of our military to bomb and kill the people of Yugoslavia not too long ago......again,
not even a remote threat or danger to the US or our citizens.

My guess is, the double standard is alive and well,... as it always is ...... most Dims just can do no wrong....
Click to expand...

Hey retard (and I apologize to the retarded for that slur), this conversation is about the vets. Either join in the actual discussion or stay at the children's table and wait for a topic you can discuss intelligently.
 
Onceler said:
This is such a well-written post, and really, I agree with all of it. Most of all, that it is incredibly complex. Obviously, it's way too simplistic to say "if you're a soldier, you're a hero." Our actions define us more than what our role happens to be.

But that is where the last part of what you wrote comes in. War is about putting young men & women into situations that are simply impossible. It's a mindf**k of epic proportions, complete with horrific day-to-day circumstances, as well as some of the brainwashing you refer to, where "the enemy" is dehumanized as a strategy. I think "Platoon" did an excellent job of showing how the horror that soldiers live w/ every day in a way can build up & boil over, and lead them to do things they never thought themselves capable of. I remember seeing a special on My Lai, and there was one vet who talked about the atrocities he committed that day; he had no explanation whatsoever for why he snapped, but the fact that he did ruined his life.

It gets back to the old argument, that war is a last resort, always. It's why Iraq w/ its whole PNAC agenda was so infuriating.
Click to expand...

Yes I agree. And thank you. I just reread what he wrote, and I don't want to repost it here it's filled with filth. I would be embarrassed. But it's so outrageous. I just looked him up out of curiosity and he is blogging for the Huffpo now! I should write them and forward them his writings on how he "violated himself' by raping a victim of human trafficking.
 
bravo said:
The difference between volunteers and draftees is certainly apparent...between those that are there because they want to serve and believe its an honor and their duty and
the others.....the ones that 'loath' the military or whose choice was jail or a uniform.....
but unless your physic, you can't know which are the good guys ......
War, and even preparing for war, changes EVERY man or women that sees it up close and in color....
Click to expand...

Now this is an actual reply on the topic. Yes, I think even the preparation for war changes us. The actual time spent facing enemy fire does damage, even to those who come out unscathed.
 
WinterBorn said:
Hey retard (and I apologize to the retarded for that slur), this conversation is about the vets. Either join in the actual discussion or stay at the children's table and wait for a topic you can discuss intelligently.
Click to expand...


Yes....and being one, I'll give my 2 cents worth, whether you like it or not.....
 
bravo said:
Really ?....just where do you claim I strayed from addressing a post ?
Click to expand...

He said topic - your initial response was idiotic, especially in light of the fact that I said I opposed every conflict in my lifetime save Afghanistan, and mentioned LBJ. But you had to do your typical "double standard" thing, which is actually the height of irony coming from you.

Seriously - no one who has read your posts for more than a day or 2 reads that and doesn't laugh uproariously.
 
Onceler said:
He said topic - your initial response was idiotic, especially in light of the fact that I said I opposed every conflict in my lifetime save Afghanistan, and mentioned LBJ. But you had to do your typical "double standard" thing, which is actually the height of irony coming from you.

Seriously - no one who has read your posts for more than a day or 2 reads that and doesn't laugh uproariously.
Click to expand...


Yeah, and the TOPIC I addressed was your post, your topic, your claims....and those you conviently DIDN'T mention.

Keep your personal insults to yourself, though your comrades won't call you out for that, only me.....that double standard again....
 
bravo said:
Yeah, and the TOPIC I addressed was your post, your topic, your claims....and those you conviently DIDN'T mention.

Keep your personal insults to yourself, though your comrades won't call you out for that, only me.....that double standard again....
Click to expand...

Yeah - let's look at who I didn't mention. I named the architects of the Iraq War - the most unjust conflict in my lifetime by a mile. I mentioned LBJ and Reagan - a Dem President and a GOP President. I didn't mention Obama & Clinton - 2 Dem Presidents. I didn't mention either Bush - 2 GOP Presidents. I didn't mention Nixon, Ford or Carter - 2 Republicans and a Dem.

So I actually left more Republicans out than Dems. Oh - and I said I opposed every conflict except for Afghanistan.

Feel stupid yet? Probably not. You're a shameless individual.
 
It cracks me up listen to our resident experts give opinions on subjects they know so little about.....
Onecell can tell us all about how taking a piss on dry leaves or a snore or a sneeze can get you killed on occasion.....
Or how the pilots rely on your aircraft inspection with their lives....
Or your crewmates trust when your on watch, you don't take a nap and miss something....
Give us the lowdown, fuckin' hack....

ok...I'm done.....enjoy yourselves....
 
bravo said:
It cracks me up listen to our resident experts give opinions on subjects they know so little about.....
Onecell can tell us all about how taking a piss on dry leaves or a snore or a sneeze can get you killed on occasion.....
Or how the pilots rely on your aircraft inspection with their lives....
Or your crewmates trust when your on watch, you don't take a nap and miss something....
Give us the lowdown, fuckin' hack....

ok...I'm done.....enjoy yourselves....
Click to expand...

What does this have to do with anything? Are you saying that if you know about these things then you're allowed to rape whoever you want? Otherwise I don't get the significance?
 
Onceler said:
I don't have a problem w/ the word "hero," personally. It actually never occurred to me that using it would add or imply any justification for the particular conflict the soldier was fighting in.

I read about that dude who got the medal of honor recently after his actions in Vietnam over 40 years ago. What he did in battle was unreal, and he saved quite a few people - there is no doubt that the guy is a hero, and should be celebrated & honored as such. And, for that matter, anyone else who put themselves in harm's way, no matter what the war is. And I haven't really supported any war in my lifetime (Afghanistan is the lone exception to that one, but I have come to regret that support a lot).

The lesson from Vietnam that you refer to - to always be clear about supporting the troops - is a good one. It is so important to separate the masters of war - idiots like Cheney & Rumsfeld & Wolfowicz, as well as LBJ, Reagan, et al. - from the soldiers, the ones who willingly sign up to protect us, and who have no choice but to trust that what their leaders decide is true & just. Soldiers in a battlefield shouldn't be expected to weigh the moral implications of the broader conflict they're involved in and act accordingly; it would be chaos if they did.

We can call them heroes, and still have a very clear idea & judgment on who the villains are.
Click to expand...

My husband does not feel like a hero. It was war, it was hell. He said you did what you had to do to stay alive and you watched your buddies' backs, and they watched yours.

W are an industrialized, military machine and all who criticize it will be treated as traitors. I know what Chris feels like, I protested every war we have been in since 1969. We are ridiculed and degraded because we don't see war as necessary. It is position I must take though, it is my conscience, it is seeing what it does to people.

The last war that the USA even came close to experiencing a small portion of the shared burden was WWII. Hell, for Iraq our taxes didn't even go up, let alone any sacrifice on the publics part.
 
Last edited:
I guess there is no point sending it to the huffpo, I have been reading some of his stuff over there and he has already covered this by lying about what he initially said, and then claiming that "some people accused him of rape" when a prostitute accidentally bought him. LOL

It's very interesting to check in on them after several years and see that Matt has done very well for himself, and Goldsmith has largely dropped out of sight. I judge Goldsmith to have the better character. Though I disagree with his politics. Matt is a true fraud. I love how he calls himself a feminist. That's the thing with these guys. I always tell women, when you meet a man who actually calls himself a feminist - run. Run. Run.

Anyway, that was a trip down memory lane, weird. I don't even know why I went into it here.
 
Darla said:
What does this have to do with anything? Are you saying that if you know about these things then you're allowed to rape whoever you want? Otherwise I don't get the significance?
Click to expand...

Is there anywhere in my post that suggests what your claiming I mean ?....Did I talk about rape ?

The post was in response to Onecell and vast knowledge and learned opinions on war.....his laymen views and those responsible for the killking....
Implying saving Kuwait was wrong in some way and only Afghanistan is a just war.....
Conveniently forgetting Obama (Lybia) and Clinton (Yugoslavia) ...yet ridicules Cheney & Rumsfeld & Wolfowicz, Reagan......

Off topic of the vets, but on topic concidering Onecells claims and personal attacks....
 
This is a really awesome thread, at least for the most part (we all know the posts that suck).

Since we're on the subject, I guess I'll share a bit of my own experiences. Not everything, ironically because I know a lot of people here and have for years. Its funny that the closer I am to someone the less likely I am to trust them to understand (with 1 exception). Anyways.....

So suffice it to say there are moments I'd give anything to forget. And at the same time they did something good for me. I just can't hate people blindly. I never did much in the first place, but overall I've seen that people, even ones who want me dead, still have normal things. They put their shoes on like me (I put my pants on both legs at once, so I'm awesome there.) Some like booze, or guns, or cats. Some might even be my best friends, were circumstances different. So one thing war taught me was love. Wish I could say the same for other vets. And while I talk about vets I guess I should say just because you signed the contract, it doesn't make you a hero. It didn't make me one. All it made me was property. Voluntary, yes, but still property. Life, and ones titles in it, should be the cumulitve sum of ALL your actions. Not just a couple years of them (unless they're really amazing actions).

In the same vein, that means just because you did something terrible, does not inherently make you a terrible person for life. But that's my opinion anyways.

I'm not sure where to fit this in, but since we're talking about tragedy and wars effects on people, I guess I'll give som of my 'reactions'.

I haven't had more than 2 hours of continuous sleep in nearly 6 years. I get out of bed every day with pains that I shouldn't have at 24. Or 44 for that matter. I'm also paranoid about meeting new people. In fact, in a place (like my AMVETS for example) if someone I don't know walks in the door, the very first thought that enters my head is how to deal with them in a worst case scenario. When I actually greet them, I subconciously size them up and decide whether they're a physical (not realistic) threat. And while I'm doing that I'm fighting myself all the time. Telling myself that I am being paranoid and I hate myself for that. Even with close friends, like when Grind and I hung out, I was extremly cautious and on alert. If I get texts from friends to meet up at an unusual time or place, I automatically feel that they want to do me harm. I conciously know that's not the case, but its instinct kicking in. And I actively plce great restraint on how I act with people. Part of it is profesionalism and politeness (not here though), but part of it is trying to avoid conflict because in the back of my mind I'm worried I would hurt someone.

So ya know, there's all that stuff.

But to lighten the mood, I have some delicious gin. Old Tom forever!
 
C'Thulhu said:
This is a really awesome thread, at least for the most part (we all know the posts that suck).

Since we're on the subject, I guess I'll share a bit of my own experiences. Not everything, ironically because I know a lot of people here and have for years. Its funny that the closer I am to someone the less likely I am to trust them to understand (with 1 exception). Anyways.....

So suffice it to say there are moments I'd give anything to forget. And at the same time they did something good for me. I just can't hate people blindly. I never did much in the first place, but overall I've seen that people, even ones who want me dead, still have normal things. They put their shoes on like me (I put my pants on both legs at once, so I'm awesome there.) Some like booze, or guns, or cats. Some might even be my best friends, were circumstances different. So one thing war taught me was love. Wish I could say the same for other vets. And while I talk about vets I guess I should say just because you signed the contract, it doesn't make you a hero. It didn't make me one. All it made me was property. Voluntary, yes, but still property. Life, and ones titles in it, should be the cumulitve sum of ALL your actions. Not just a couple years of them (unless they're really amazing actions).

In the same vein, that means just because you did something terrible, does not inherently make you a terrible person for life. But that's my opinion anyways.

I'm not sure where to fit this in, but since we're talking about tragedy and wars effects on people, I guess I'll give som of my 'reactions'.

I haven't had more than 2 hours of continuous sleep in nearly 6 years. I get out of bed every day with pains that I shouldn't have at 24. Or 44 for that matter. I'm also paranoid about meeting new people. In fact, in a place (like my AMVETS for example) if someone I don't know walks in the door, the very first thought that enters my head is how to deal with them in a worst case scenario. When I actually greet them, I subconciously size them up and decide whether they're a physical (not realistic) threat. And while I'm doing that I'm fighting myself all the time. Telling myself that I am being paranoid and I hate myself for that. Even with close friends, like when Grind and I hung out, I was extremly cautious and on alert. If I get texts from friends to meet up at an unusual time or place, I automatically feel that they want to do me harm. I conciously know that's not the case, but its instinct kicking in. And I actively plce great restraint on how I act with people. Part of it is profesionalism and politeness (not here though), but part of it is trying to avoid conflict because in the back of my mind I'm worried I would hurt someone.

So ya know, there's all that stuff.

But to lighten the mood, I have some delicious gin. Old Tom forever!
Click to expand...

Well I'm glad you didn't take offense to anything I said then. I agree that committing a horrible act does not necessarily make a person horrible, however attempting to spin a rape into a bad sexual experience that violated you, the rapist, well...you know, I don't see the redemption there. But generally speaking, I agree. I'm not going to say anything else to what you wrote because there's nothing I can tell you that you haven't already heard.
 
As I have been saying for years. I support the individual troops.
I do NOT support what our government has been doing with them though.

One caveat though. I do not support those troops who took part in Abu Grabass and such autrocities.
 
Occupant said:
As I have been saying for years. I support the individual troops.
I do NOT support what our government has been doing with them though.

One caveat though. I do not support those troops who took part in Abu Grabass and such autrocities.
Click to expand...

definitively, support the troops that do their job without going nuts
 
During the last presidents reign the right could not understand how one could support the troops without supporting the war.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top