United States National Health Care Act (H.R. 676)

No, you would be end-user(singular), end-users(plural) are the American people and 62% of them want nationalized healthcare with 34% against it.

and they had this to say ..

Poll Shows Majority Back Health Care for All

The poll found Americans across party lines willing to make some sacrifice to insure that every American has access to health insurance. Sixty percent, including 62 percent of independents and 46 percent of Republicans, said they would be willing to pay more in taxes. Half said they would be willing to pay as much as $500 a year more.

Nearly 8 in 10 said they thought it was more important to provide universal access to health insurance than to extend the tax cuts of recent years; 18 percent said the tax cuts were more important.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/01/washington/01cnd-poll.html

My friend, a good pollster can make a poll come out the way he/she wants it to simply by the way they ask a question?

First you call only households in the middle of New Orleans, New York or urban areas throughout the country where people are struggling and you have a slam dunk poll saying exactly what you want it to say.

"Do you think all Americans should have affordable health insurance, Yes or No."

"Well, I believe..."

"A simple yes or no please"

"Yes"

"Do you think the government should guarantee that health insurance, yes or no".

"Oh of course!"

"Can I take that as a yes?"

"Yes"

"Would you be willing to pay a small portion of the costs of that healthcare through payroll taxes that you will hardly even notice, if the top 5% of taxpayers pay the rest through increased income taxes?"

"Yes, those bastards owe me anyway."

"Would you be willing to pay $500 more per year in taxes if your health insurance only cost you $1,600/year?"

"Why hell yes I would! My health insurance at work cost me $600 a month! Where do I sign up?"

"Thank you for your time... please support Representative Conyer's with a donation of $250 to help get H.R. 676 passed. Can I count on you for $250?"

"Well, I don't have $250 to spare, but I can send $50. Will that help?"

"Absolutely, in fact, I can take your payment over the phone." etc. etc. etc.

Sorry, pollsters regardless of the side they are representing sit just above journalists, who sit slightly higher than politicians on the honesty scale.

Immie
 
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My friend, a good pollster can make a poll come out the way he/she wants it to simply by the way they ask a question?

First you call only households in the middle of New Orleans, New York or urban areas throughout the country where people are struggling and you have a slam dunk poll saying exactly what you want it to say.

"Do you think all Americans should have affordable health insurance, Yes or No."

"Well, I believe..."

"A simple yes or no please"

"Yes"

"Do you think the government should provide that health insurance, yes or no".

"Oh of course!"

"Can I take that as a yes?"

"Yes"

"Would you be willing to pay a small portion of the costs of that healthcare through payroll taxes that you will hardly even notice, if the top 5% of taxpayers pay the rest through increased income taxes?"

"Yes, those bastards owe me anyway."

"Would you be willing to pay $500 more per year in taxes if your health insurance only cost you $1,600/year?"

"Why hell yes I would! My health insurance at work cost me $600 a month! Where do I sign up?"

"Thank you for your time... please support Representative Conyer's with a donation of $250 to help get H.R. 676 passed. Can I count on you for $250?"

"Well, I don't have $250 to spare, but I can send $50. Will that help?"

"Absolutely, in fact, I can take your payment over the phone." etc. etc. etc.

Sorry, pollsters regardless of the side they are representing sit just above journalists, who sit slightly higher than politicians on the honesty scale.

Immie

Studies have shown that journalists are among the most honest, though least trusted, professionals in the country.
 
Corrected. ;)

I'm sorry, but I simply do not buy that. Not in today's world of would be journalists.

Immie

Depends who you count as a journalist. Journalists aren't licensed, so you get dishonest people who show up on air like Glen Beck pretending to be journalists. But they're not. They don't do journalism. They report on the journalism other people have done and spin it. They don't call sources themselves, they don't ask questions, they don't go to find answers.

Real journalists work at newspapers and magazines. There are select few journalists who work in TV that are worth paying attention too. But you're most likely basing your opinion on journalists based upon what you watch on TV. The vast majority of journalists do not work in TV and are beholden to (and believe deeply in) ethical standards written by organizations such as SPJ, NPPA, etc. A journalist working for a newspaper would get canned the first time he tried to do something the way Glenn Beck does it because dishonest simply is not tolerated in the profession.
 
My friend, a good pollster can make a poll come out the way he/she wants it to simply by the way they ask a question?

First you call only households in the middle of New Orleans, New York or urban areas throughout the country where people are struggling and you have a slam dunk poll saying exactly what you want it to say.

"Do you think all Americans should have affordable health insurance, Yes or No."

"Well, I believe..."

"A simple yes or no please"

"Yes"

"Do you think the government should guarantee that health insurance, yes or no".

"Oh of course!"

"Can I take that as a yes?"

"Yes"

"Would you be willing to pay a small portion of the costs of that healthcare through payroll taxes that you will hardly even notice, if the top 5% of taxpayers pay the rest through increased income taxes?"

"Yes, those bastards owe me anyway."

"Would you be willing to pay $500 more per year in taxes if your health insurance only cost you $1,600/year?"

"Why hell yes I would! My health insurance at work cost me $600 a month! Where do I sign up?"

"Thank you for your time... please support Representative Conyer's with a donation of $250 to help get H.R. 676 passed. Can I count on you for $250?"

"Well, I don't have $250 to spare, but I can send $50. Will that help?"

"Absolutely, in fact, I can take your payment over the phone." etc. etc. etc.

Sorry, pollsters regardless of the side they are representing sit just above journalists, who sit slightly higher than politicians on the honesty scale.

Immie

There's a pattern here my brother.

When I dispelled YOUR argument about doctors being SOL and the disparities in salary, suddenly what doctors think became unimportant.

Now polls are unimportant, when in fact they, particularly when different polls demonstrate the same result. Using polls to demonstrate the support or lack of support in a position is a credible tool in debate, and I'm bettin' you don't discount polls you like.

Thanks for the lesson but I didn't really need it .. I use polls and polling methodology in my business.

Use whatever measure you choose, but the majority of Americans support nationalized healthcare. In fact, healthcare became such an issue in the campaign that even republicans were forced to talk aboiut it.

I'd be interested in knowing what measure do you use that demonstrates they don't.
 
Depends who you count as a journalist. Journalists aren't licensed, so you get dishonest people who show up on air like Glen Beck pretending to be journalists. But they're not. They don't do journalism. They report on the journalism other people have done and spin it. They don't call sources themselves, they don't ask questions, they don't go to find answers.

Real journalists work at newspapers and magazines. There are select few journalists who work in TV that are worth paying attention too. But you're most likely basing your opinion on journalists based upon what you watch on TV. The vast majority of journalists do not work in TV and are beholden to (and believe deeply in) ethical standards written by organizations such as SPJ, NPPA, etc. A journalist working for a newspaper would get canned the first time he tried to do something the way Glenn Beck does it because dishonest simply is not tolerated in the profession.

I forgot, I think once before you said you are a journalist and here I am unintentionally criticizing you. No offense intended.

Actually, I watch very little TV journalism. It has gotten hard to stomach in the past 15 -20 years and even more so after I realized I had been duped by Bush and his Republican cohorts. Now, I don't trust anyone that says, "trust me."

Depending on your response here I was waiting to remind you that people like Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Randi Rhodes and Al Franken could technically be considered "journalists". Now, please don't take offense at the next thing that I say, but even newspaper/magazine journalists have very little standing in the way of honesty. They report the news as they see it and whether it is intentional or not, they leave out things that they don't like and put in things that they do like.

They pump up the people making the news that they like and they drag down the ones they don't like... just like Rush, Sean and Randi.

But, come to think of it, I might have been a wee bit harsh on the industry comparing them to politicians and pollsters. Oh and I should have thrown lobbyists in there as well. About half a step above politicians... maybe! I'll have to think about where journalists sit a little bit.

Immie
 
There's a pattern here my brother.

When I dispelled YOUR argument about doctors being SOL and the disparities in salary, suddenly what doctors think became unimportant.

Now polls are unimportant, when in fact they, particularly when different polls demonstrate the same result. Using polls to demonstrate the support or lack of support in a position is a credible tool in debate, and I'm bettin' you don't discount polls you like.

Thanks for the lesson but I didn't really need it .. I use polls and polling methodology in my business.

Use whatever measure you choose, but the majority of Americans support nationalized healthcare. In fact, healthcare became such an issue in the campaign that even republicans were forced to talk aboiut it.

I'd be interested in knowing what measure do you use that demonstrates they don't.

I never said the doctor thing was unimportant. I gave several points that I had a problem with this bill over when I first entered the thread. You hit me with different things you disagree with in each of those points and I tried to rebut your points, but we can have 50 different posts from each of us stating that medical professionals will leave the field... no they won't or we can discuss the other issues.

I have always respected you BAC and am trying not to get into a pissing contest with you.

I think medical professionals will leave the field... you present a lobbyists group for the bill that says doctors love it. I don't buy it.

I think this plan will be extremely costly to the American public.. you present an advertisement for the plan that says we'll only pay $1,600 a year. I say that is preposterous.

You tell me pollsters show that 62% of the American public think it is fabulous... I tell you what I think.

I'm no expert, but I am part of the American public and I think this plan is another disaster.

I'm not going to go out and hunt for other people's opinions that just happen to coincide with mine, because quite frankly, I don't give a damned. This is a discussion board and I really don't care what the media wants me to believe. I have my beliefs and I will share them with you. You are more than welcomed to run out to the internet and find a thousand polls that agree with you. That is just fine. But more than 62% of the America public has their heads up their asses all the way to the belly button if they think the government can run healthcare efficiently.

I am 1000 times more interested in what BAC and IB1 think about the issue than I am about what the media wants me to think.

Respectfully,

Immie
 
There's a pattern here my brother.

When I dispelled YOUR argument about doctors being SOL and the disparities in salary, suddenly what doctors think became unimportant.

Now polls are unimportant, when in fact they, particularly when different polls demonstrate the same result. Using polls to demonstrate the support or lack of support in a position is a credible tool in debate, and I'm bettin' you don't discount polls you like.

Thanks for the lesson but I didn't really need it .. I use polls and polling methodology in my business.

Use whatever measure you choose, but the majority of Americans support nationalized healthcare. In fact, healthcare became such an issue in the campaign that even republicans were forced to talk aboiut it.

I'd be interested in knowing what measure do you use that demonstrates they don't.

I never said the doctor thing was unimportant. Edit: I said, what the lobbyist group wants you to think is unimportant. Big difference. I gave several points that I had a problem with this bill over when I first entered the thread. You hit me with different things you disagree with in each of those points and I tried to rebut your points, but we can have 50 different posts from each of us stating that medical professionals will leave the field... no they won't or we can discuss the other issues.

I have always respected you BAC and am trying not to get into a pissing contest with you.

I think medical professionals will leave the field... you present a lobbyists group for the bill that says doctors love it. I don't buy it.

I think this plan will be extremely costly to the American public.. you present an advertisement for the plan that says we'll only pay $1,600 a year. I say that is preposterous.

You tell me pollsters show that 62% of the American public think it is fabulous... I tell you what I think.

I'm no expert, but I am part of the American public and I think this plan is another disaster.

I'm not going to go out and hunt for other people's opinions that just happen to coincide with mine, because quite frankly, I don't give a damned. This is a discussion board and I really don't care what the media wants me to believe. I have my beliefs and I will share them with you. You are more than welcomed to run out to the internet and find a thousand polls that agree with you. That is just fine. But more than 62% of the America public has their heads up their asses all the way to the belly button if they think the government can run healthcare efficiently.

I am 1000 times more interested in what BAC and IB1 think about the issue than I am about what the media wants me to think.

Respectfully,

Immie
 
Since polling has been brought up, aren't all public opinion polls technically appeals to bandwagon mentality, and therefore inherently flawed/not logical?
 
I never said the doctor thing was unimportant. I gave several points that I had a problem with this bill over when I first entered the thread. You hit me with different things you disagree with in each of those points and I tried to rebut your points, but we can have 50 different posts from each of us stating that medical professionals will leave the field... no they won't or we can discuss the other issues.

I have always respected you BAC and am trying not to get into a pissing contest with you.

I think medical professionals will leave the field... you present a lobbyists group for the bill that says doctors love it. I don't buy it.

I think this plan will be extremely costly to the American public.. you present an advertisement for the plan that says we'll only pay $1,600 a year. I say that is preposterous.

You tell me pollsters show that 62% of the American public think it is fabulous... I tell you what I think.

I'm no expert, but I am part of the American public and I think this plan is another disaster.

I'm not going to go out and hunt for other people's opinions that just happen to coincide with mine, because quite frankly, I don't give a damned. This is a discussion board and I really don't care what the media wants me to believe. I have my beliefs and I will share them with you. You are more than welcomed to run out to the internet and find a thousand polls that agree with you. That is just fine. But more than 62% of the America public has their heads up their asses all the way to the belly button if they think the government can run healthcare efficiently.

I am 1000 times more interested in what BAC and IB1 think about the issue than I am about what the media wants me to think.

Respectfully,

Immie

Much respect for you as well my brother, and I apologize if I seemed overly aggressive. I did not intend to be, but admitedly, I'm a bit overly passionate about my beliefs. It's a necessary trait of activists that sometimes goes too far. I appreciate the opportunity for intelligent discussion and you have been nothing short of civil, respectful, and intelligent throughout this conversation.

My bad.

Healthcare has long been an issue that I'm prone to lose my mind over as I've watched the devasation and tragedy that comes to families without adequate healthcare coverage. This affects a great number of Americans, but it is a problem that is particularly devastating to African-Americans .. made even more devastating because of our propensity to hypertension. Black men are often dead by 50 years old. I died March 19, 2007 from a stroke and a hemoraggic seizure developed from my high blood pressure. Thankfully, my dog knew there was something wrong with me, and when I dropped dead on my kitchen floor at 3:30 in the morning, he ran to wake up my wife and daughter who both rushed into the kitchen to find me essentially dead on the floor, no pulse and not breathing.

Fortunately my wife knows CPR and she snatched me back from staying dead. I spent four weeks in the hospital but didn't regain consciousness for four days. They couldn't wake me up .. then on the fifth day, I just woke up. The good news .. besides being alive .. is that I had health insurance and could pay my portion of the $47,000.00 hospital bill .. else taxpayers would have been paying it.

I tell you my sad story only to let you know where part of my ferver for this issue comes from.

I realize that not everyone believes that government control of healthcare .. which I do not believe Obama supports .. is the best way to go, but I do. In my opinion, this is the biggest issue and legislation for African-Americans since the Civil Rights Act and the biggest stimulus for all Americans since the GI Bill.

Gotta go .. meeting with the Atlanta City Council this morning in an effort to get them to join the growing list of municipalities that stand behind this bill.

Here is one of the graphs I'll be showing them ..

municipal_health_care_costs_10132_image001.gif


That's the percentage of tax revenues/healthcare costs to cities and municipalities. Atlanta, like most US cities is being choked to death by rising healthcare costs which are exploding their budgets. Atlanta has closed several fire stations and has cut back on some police services and hours in an effort to save money. There is a wealth of information on the crippling effect of health care costs to local budgets.

As a nation we cannot continue to ignore this elephant in the room. We cannot continue to pretend the ideology of "free markets" is more important than the health of American citizens. We cannot continue to believe that, somehow, it will get better.

The IHSP study is not an advertisement my brother, it's a serious study.

I hope I still have your respect and you'll pardon my temporary insanity.
 
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Much respect for you as well my brother, and I apologize if I seemed overly aggressive. I did not intend to be, but admitedly, I'm a bit overly passionate about my beliefs. It's a necessary trait of activists that sometimes goes too far. I appreciate the opportunity for intelligent discussion and you have been nothing short of civil, respectful, and intelligent throughout this conversation.

My bad.

Healthcare has long been an issue that I'm prone to lose my mind over as I've watched the devasation and tragedy that comes to families without adequate healthcare coverage. This affects a great number of Americans, but it is a problem that is particularly devastating to African-Americans .. made even more devastating because of our propensity to hypertension. Black men are often dead by 50 years old. I died March 19, 2007 from a stroke and a hemoraggic seizure developed from my high blood pressure. Thankfully, my dog knew there was something wrong with me, and when I dropped dead on my kitchen floor at 3:30 in the morning, he ran to wake up my wife and daughter who both rushed into the kitchen to find me essentially dead on the floor, no pulse and not breathing.

Fortunately my wife knows CPR and she snatched me back from staying dead. I spent four weeks in the hospital but didn't regain consciousness for four days. They couldn't wake me up .. then on the fifth day, I just woke up. The good news .. besides being alive .. is that I had health insurance and could pay my portion of the $47,000.00 hospital bill .. else taxpayers would have been paying it.

I tell you my sad story only to let you know where part of my ferver for this issue comes from.

I realize that not everyone believes that government control of healthcare .. which I do not believe Obama supports .. is the best way to go, but I do. In my opinion, this is the biggest issue and legislation for African-Americans since the Civil Rights Act and the biggest stimulus for all Americans since the GI Bill.

Gotta go .. meeting with the Atlanta City Council this morning in an effort to get them to join the growing list of municipalities that stand behind this bill.

Here is one of the graphs I'll be showing them ..

municipal_health_care_costs_10132_image001.gif


That's the percentage of tax revenues/healthcare costs to cities and municipalities. Atlanta, like most US cities is being choked to death by rising healthcare costs which are exploding their budgets. Atlanta has closed several fire stations and has cut back on some police services and hours in an effort to save money. There is a wealth of information on the crippling effect of health care costs to local budgets.

As a nation we cannot continue to ignore this elephant in the room. We cannot continue to pretend the ideology of "free markets" is more important than the health of American citizens. We cannot continue to believe that, somehow, it will get better.

The IHSP study is not an advertisement my brother, it's a serious study.

I hope I still have your respect and you'll pardon my temporary insanity.

Healthcare costs have moved up to coincide with more government involvement in healthcare.
The 40's with government making employer provided health insurance tax deductible and the Hill-Burton Act, the 50's with amendment to SS to pay for healthcare for poor seniors, the 60's with Medicare/Medicaid, the 70's with the HMO Act, the 90's with the Patients Rights Act, and this decade with yet more government involvement. And I am only including the MAJOR federal increases, there are far more minor ones and then there are even more at the state level.

Yet after all that, the left blames the "free market"? What free market? We have done nothing but move away from a free market and it has done nothing but get more expensive each time.
The answer is obvious, allow more of a free market once again and reverse government involvement.
 
Much respect for you as well my brother, and I apologize if I seemed overly aggressive. I did not intend to be, but admitedly, I'm a bit overly passionate about my beliefs. It's a necessary trait of activists that sometimes goes too far. I appreciate the opportunity for intelligent discussion and you have been nothing short of civil, respectful, and intelligent throughout this conversation.

My bad.

Healthcare has long been an issue that I'm prone to lose my mind over as I've watched the devasation and tragedy that comes to families without adequate healthcare coverage. This affects a great number of Americans, but it is a problem that is particularly devastating to African-Americans .. made even more devastating because of our propensity to hypertension. Black men are often dead by 50 years old. I died March 19, 2007 from a stroke and a hemoraggic seizure developed from my high blood pressure. Thankfully, my dog knew there was something wrong with me, and when I dropped dead on my kitchen floor at 3:30 in the morning, he ran to wake up my wife and daughter who both rushed into the kitchen to find me essentially dead on the floor, no pulse and not breathing.

Fortunately my wife knows CPR and she snatched me back from staying dead. I spent four weeks in the hospital but didn't regain consciousness for four days. They couldn't wake me up .. then on the fifth day, I just woke up. The good news .. besides being alive .. is that I had health insurance and could pay my portion of the $47,000.00 hospital bill .. else taxpayers would have been paying it.

I tell you my sad story only to let you know where part of my ferver for this issue comes from.

I realize that not everyone believes that government control of healthcare .. which I do not believe Obama supports .. is the best way to go, but I do. In my opinion, this is the biggest issue and legislation for African-Americans since the Civil Rights Act and the biggest stimulus for all Americans since the GI Bill.

Gotta go .. meeting with the Atlanta City Council this morning in an effort to get them to join the growing list of municipalities that stand behind this bill.

Here is one of the graphs I'll be showing them ..

municipal_health_care_costs_10132_image001.gif


That's the percentage of tax revenues/healthcare costs to cities and municipalities. Atlanta, like most US cities is being choked to death by rising healthcare costs which are exploding their budgets. Atlanta has closed several fire stations and has cut back on some police services and hours in an effort to save money. There is a wealth of information on the crippling effect of health care costs to local budgets.

As a nation we cannot continue to ignore this elephant in the room. We cannot continue to pretend the ideology of "free markets" is more important than the health of American citizens. We cannot continue to believe that, somehow, it will get better.

The IHSP study is not an advertisement my brother, it's a serious study.

I hope I still have your respect and you'll pardon my temporary insanity.

As I said when I entered this thread, I think it is inevitable. I am not so sure that it is the right thing to do, nor do I think the government can handle the task.

I don't know what the right thing is.

Clearly we can not go on with what we have. People (employed people) are losing their coverage every day because their employers simply can no longer afford to subsidize health insurance and I fully believe it is going to get worse without the promise of it ever getting better.

I'm concerned with many of the provisions of the bill which is not a final version so that is a very good thing. As I said, I don't think the government can do much at all in an efficient manner and having them control my health care and believe me they will control your health care with this plan by disallowing certain drugs or coverage that are important to your continuing livelihood.

But, again, I don't have a clue what a better solution is. Hopefully, that better solution will appear before it is too late.

Immie
 
Healthcare costs have moved up to coincide with more government involvement in healthcare.
The 40's with government making employer provided health insurance tax deductible and the Hill-Burton Act, the 50's with amendment to SS to pay for healthcare for poor seniors, the 60's with Medicare/Medicaid, the 70's with the HMO Act, the 90's with the Patients Rights Act, and this decade with yet more government involvement. And I am only including the MAJOR federal increases, there are far more minor ones and then there are even more at the state level.

Yet after all that, the left blames the "free market"? What free market? We have done nothing but move away from a free market and it has done nothing but get more expensive each time.
The answer is obvious, allow more of a free market once again and reverse government involvement.

Respectfully .. UBER-ridiculous brother.

In the face of a disaster caused by runaway greed ..we should have LESS controls, regulation, and oversight?

That's ideology talking, not a critical analysis.

There is no such thing as a "free market."

It's a pipe dream libertarian halucination, but it is not practiced anywhere on planet earth, nor has it ever been .. except by robber barons. There is a very good reason why governments use mixed markets.
 
As I said when I entered this thread, I think it is inevitable. I am not so sure that it is the right thing to do, nor do I think the government can handle the task.

I don't know what the right thing is.

Clearly we can not go on with what we have. People (employed people) are losing their coverage every day because their employers simply can no longer afford to subsidize health insurance and I fully believe it is going to get worse without the promise of it ever getting better.

I'm concerned with many of the provisions of the bill which is not a final version so that is a very good thing. As I said, I don't think the government can do much at all in an efficient manner and having them control my health care and believe me they will control your health care with this plan by disallowing certain drugs or coverage that are important to your continuing livelihood.

But, again, I don't have a clue what a better solution is. Hopefully, that better solution will appear before it is too late.

Immie

If there is a better solution, I'm all for it.

The only thing I'm wedded to is a better solution.

My presentation before the Atlanta City Council was well recieved .. and if the city of Atlanta joins the co-sponsors, it will be my doing.

After I finished up there and answered about 10,000 questions, I was a panelist in a jam-packed forum on the same topic. There were many doctors and nurses in attendance and on the panel.

02-25-09%20Healthcare%20Forum.png


Unless this "better solution" emerges soon, the momentum is building for nationalized healthcare.
 
If there is a better solution, I'm all for it.

The only thing I'm wedded to is a better solution.

My presentation before the Atlanta City Council was well recieved .. and if the city of Atlanta joins the co-sponsors, it will be my doing.

After I finished up there and answered about 10,000 questions, I was a panelist in a jam-packed forum on the same topic. There were many doctors and nurses in attendance and on the panel.

Unless this "better solution" emerges soon, the momentum is building for nationalized healthcare.

I wouldn't count on a better solution emerging through Congress. They have their minds set on controlling all of us. This is just on small piece of the puzzle for them.

Immie
 
Blackascoal,

I am curious, what do you do for a living?

I operate my own business that does online maintenance, performance monitoring, and backup and recovery of Oracle and other relational database systems. We also have a political side that does research for political candidates and issue-oriented organizations, as well as GOTV analysis, robocall distribution, and media consulting.

I'm an Oracle DBA, but I've worked for Congress in communication, media, and research. I've found a niche that blends them both.

I'm monitoring client systems right now.
 
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