Unions: Good for bad teachers, bad for kids

I didn't say that. What other jobs allow you after three years a right to not be fired unless you do the most agregious act? I listed changes I supported. Those changes did not leave teachers hanging out to dry. It does not have to be an extreme. You tell me why a better younger teacher should be fired first over a worse more senior teachers? You seem to want to put teachers on an untouchable pedastal and fuck the kids. I strongly disagree.

Mott likes to create straw men. Mott also has a 'union members always work hard' mentality. He thinks it 'just a few' that aren't productive. The vast majority of union workers DO work hard. The problem is in firing those that do not. Those that game the system.

We have one of the wealthiest public school districts in the country. A friend of mine got tenure as a teacher this year (3rd year) and she finds out this year if she is guaranteed a spot in that school district at the end of the school year. Every single desk has a laptop integrated with a big screen in the front of the class, top of line tech that the teachers can use to help facilitate the education process. The older teachers don't use them at all. They refuse. They stick to lesson plans from a decade+ ago. There is NO way to fire them or force them to use the equipment the taxpayers provided. This is equipment that should be provided, but it must also be used. It is stupid crap like that which pisses me off the most (outside of the insanely large admin staffing that goes with every school district)
 
I'll add Mott I am not anti-teacher. I am anti their union. I have a lot of respect for teachers. For five years I volunteered through Junior Achievement and taugh a Senior's Economic class at an inner-city school. It was an awesome experience. I loved it. I did this while I was working on full commission. I wasn't teaching while on the company's dime it was something that was important to me. So I'm not getting into a philosophical argument of are unions good or bad. I'm saying specifically that teachers union do more harm than good to the cause of education. If ideologically unions take precedent over education system then so be it. That's not for me.
 
I'm not against firing bad teachers. But if you didn't pay them dog shit maybe they wouldn't feel the need to unionize.

Their compensation is heavily weighted toward the end of their careers, but they are well compensated. The unions negotiated some of the best ever retirement benefits that I've seen.
 
I'm not against firing bad teachers. But if you didn't pay them dog shit maybe they wouldn't feel the need to unionize.

Another straw man. I would say the average worker would love to have a job at an average teacher's salary with all the time off, perks, and benefits.
 
Another straw man. I would say the average worker would love to have a job at an average teacher's salary with all the time off, perks, and benefits.

Again, you wouldn't know shit about what educated people make. Yes you probably know a lot about what average people make. They don't have degrees either.
 
Again, you wouldn't know shit about what educated people make. Yes you probably know a lot about what average people make. They don't have degrees either.

Okay, since you're so smart, tell us the average salary and benefits for school teachers in Wisconsin.
 
A just-retired public school principal writes me after my special:


You nailed the problems and issues in today's public education... with the current teacher unions, textbook companies, and especially teacher TENURE... teacher "tenure" is all but stopping 21st Century educational reform all over the United States.

Tenure is bad. Some teachers are more effective than others - yet the union frowns on giving the best teachers extra pay for excellence. They even frown on paying lousy teachers less. They snarl at the idea of ever firing a teacher. Public school teachers typically get tenure once they've taught for about 3 years. After that, the union and civil service protection make it just about impossible to fire them. They basically have a job for life.

In Patterson, NJ, it's ex-police detective Jim Smith's job to investigate claims against bad teachers and to try to go through the union-created, insane process of trying to fire REALLY bad ones. He says it's so hard to fire anyone that it took years to fire a teacher who hit kids. "It took me four years and $283,000. $127,000 in legal fees plus what it cost to have a substitute fill in, all the while he's sitting home having popcorn," said Smith.

This is not how it works in real life: the private sector. Remember when GE was a phenomenal growth company, rather than the bloated "partner" with Big Government it is now? Its CEO at the time, Jack Welch, said what was crucial was "identifying the bottom 10 percent of employees, giving them a year to improve, and then firing them if they didn't get better."

That idea influenced charter school leader Deborah Kenny, and because her schools are non-union, she can fire. It's made a difference. Her students outscore the union school's students on all the standardized tests. "We fired as many as we must and as little as we can." She says the good teachers want the bad teachers out. "Somebody who doesn't carry their weight... brings down the morale of the whole team of teachers."

I asked some charter teachers if it bothered them that they could get fired at any minute. "If I'm not doing my job per se and I was fired for that, so be it," said one. Another told me, "If I was a doctor and I wasn't good, I mean I wouldn't have a job, no one would come to me, right?"

But the unions say that failing teachers should be given chances to improve. Lots of chances. "We need to lift up the low performers and help them do better," Nathan Saunders, head of the DC teachers union told me. "There's a cost of firing teachers... the quality of life of that person is deeply affected by that termination."

Boo-hoo. Notice that he didn't mention the kids who are stuck in that class with the teacher being a second, third, or fourth chance?

Former DC schools chancellor Michelle Rhee told me a story about visiting a high school where class after class had terrible attendance. She asked a teacher,


"Where are all the kids?" She was told that low-attendance was expected on a Friday, especially when it was raining. She then noticed a crowded classroom. "There are 30 kids ... not enough desks for the kids that were there. I'm watching the teacher. This is a pretty engaging lesson. So I go up to one of the kids, a young man. And I said, "What do you think about the teacher?" He said, "This is my best teacher, bar none."

Rhee later left the school and saw that same student and two of his friends leaving.


"I said, 'Excuse me, young man. Where do you think you're going?' And they said to me, 'Well, our first period teacher, the one that you saw, he's great. So we came to school. But our second period teacher is not so good, so we're going to roll.' This is not the picture that the American public has of truants! These children were making a very conscious decision to wake up early and to come to school for first period, cause they knew they were going to get something out of it, and then to leave after that because they weren't going to get any value."

And yet, thanks to teachers unions and tenure, that great teacher gets paid no more than the others.


Read more: http://www.foxbusiness.com/on-air/s...ions-good-bad-teachers-bad-kids#ixzz1d8Di1flr

Check the political party registration of all teachers. If it's "Republican", fire them, no questions asked. I assure you, this is the best possible way to improve our schools.
 
We don't have the union problem as bad here in NC. Teacher's base salaries are paid by the State and local school boards give them extra pay or not depending on their own criteria.

Criteria such as who the principle happens to like, forming a good 'ole boys club, rewarding those who slack off and punishing those who actually attempt to do good work, in true capitalist fashion.
 
One of the major goals of the radical right has always been to take power away from workers in the workplace. To force them to work for subsistence wages and to control their lives. We know that. The teacher's union is an overall liberal organization that votes democratic. This has nothing to do about education but everything to do about stopping support for the Democratic Party and busting every union in this country. How much support are you going to get next election from the police, firemen and teachers? The right is cutting it's own throat, just look at the Ohio results in the last election.

One question for you... who hires lazy, unqualified workers? Is it the union or is it the company?
If a company hires lazy workers the only thing a union can do is to protect their right to work to a certain point. The blame go to whoever hires bad workers.

Most of you extremists right wingers see union organization as a commie plot but that's just your brainwashing showing.

Only corporations can collectively bargain in the modern environment. The right FORCES workers to not collectively bargain, when collectively bargaining is obviously the only way to get a fair deal. It's no wonder that those who are worthless to society, lazy, unintelligent, and incapable of producing anything are capitalists - they know their only road to success in life is to be handed a lottery ticket, and if they were paid for hard work and ingenuity in socialist fashion they would soon starve. We need to purge society of the parasites.
 
You don't know what the hell your talking about. My grandfather was a railroad conductor and a life long union man. You calling him a mediocrity? My best friend is a master electrician and a union man. You think he's a mediocrity? You know what it takes to obtain masters certification? My Uncle was a master machinist, as in skilled tradesman, it was his union that paid for his training and organized his apprenticeship. You think he's a mediocrity? My cousins oldest son is an AP math teacher at a local high school. He's a union man. He has a masters in applied mathematics. You telling me he's a mediocrity? My sisters is an BS/RN. Works for the local community hospital. She's a union member. Are you telling me that she's a mediocrity? You should be so lucky that if your sick to be in a hospital with all those mediocrities of her caliber.

The fact of the matter is that Unions don't breed mediocrity. What they have done is create our middle class.

If only a banker had been born in their stead! Those are the true wheels on which society turns, as is shown by the their salaries. If it were not for those who were in the right place at the right time, randomly received lots of wealth, and used this wealth to collect rent on the surplus labor of those who actually produced, society could not continue on.
 
I'll add Mott I am not anti-teacher. I am anti their union. I have a lot of respect for teachers. For five years I volunteered through Junior Achievement and taugh a Senior's Economic class at an inner-city school. It was an awesome experience. I loved it. I did this while I was working on full commission. I wasn't teaching while on the company's dime it was something that was important to me. So I'm not getting into a philosophical argument of are unions good or bad. I'm saying specifically that teachers union do more harm than good to the cause of education. If ideologically unions take precedent over education system then so be it. That's not for me.
and I'm saying that that's a false contrived dualism.
 
Check the political party registration of all teachers. If it's "Republican", fire them, no questions asked. I assure you, this is the best possible way to improve our schools.

We already know it's all political. Thanks for confirming it. Now please stop telling us every time you want more money that "It's For The Children".
 
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