Unions: Good for bad teachers, bad for kids

Alias

Banned
A just-retired public school principal writes me after my special:


You nailed the problems and issues in today's public education... with the current teacher unions, textbook companies, and especially teacher TENURE... teacher "tenure" is all but stopping 21st Century educational reform all over the United States.

Tenure is bad. Some teachers are more effective than others - yet the union frowns on giving the best teachers extra pay for excellence. They even frown on paying lousy teachers less. They snarl at the idea of ever firing a teacher. Public school teachers typically get tenure once they've taught for about 3 years. After that, the union and civil service protection make it just about impossible to fire them. They basically have a job for life.

In Patterson, NJ, it's ex-police detective Jim Smith's job to investigate claims against bad teachers and to try to go through the union-created, insane process of trying to fire REALLY bad ones. He says it's so hard to fire anyone that it took years to fire a teacher who hit kids. "It took me four years and $283,000. $127,000 in legal fees plus what it cost to have a substitute fill in, all the while he's sitting home having popcorn," said Smith.

This is not how it works in real life: the private sector. Remember when GE was a phenomenal growth company, rather than the bloated "partner" with Big Government it is now? Its CEO at the time, Jack Welch, said what was crucial was "identifying the bottom 10 percent of employees, giving them a year to improve, and then firing them if they didn't get better."

That idea influenced charter school leader Deborah Kenny, and because her schools are non-union, she can fire. It's made a difference. Her students outscore the union school's students on all the standardized tests. "We fired as many as we must and as little as we can." She says the good teachers want the bad teachers out. "Somebody who doesn't carry their weight... brings down the morale of the whole team of teachers."

I asked some charter teachers if it bothered them that they could get fired at any minute. "If I'm not doing my job per se and I was fired for that, so be it," said one. Another told me, "If I was a doctor and I wasn't good, I mean I wouldn't have a job, no one would come to me, right?"

But the unions say that failing teachers should be given chances to improve. Lots of chances. "We need to lift up the low performers and help them do better," Nathan Saunders, head of the DC teachers union told me. "There's a cost of firing teachers... the quality of life of that person is deeply affected by that termination."

Boo-hoo. Notice that he didn't mention the kids who are stuck in that class with the teacher being a second, third, or fourth chance?

Former DC schools chancellor Michelle Rhee told me a story about visiting a high school where class after class had terrible attendance. She asked a teacher,


"Where are all the kids?" She was told that low-attendance was expected on a Friday, especially when it was raining. She then noticed a crowded classroom. "There are 30 kids ... not enough desks for the kids that were there. I'm watching the teacher. This is a pretty engaging lesson. So I go up to one of the kids, a young man. And I said, "What do you think about the teacher?" He said, "This is my best teacher, bar none."

Rhee later left the school and saw that same student and two of his friends leaving.


"I said, 'Excuse me, young man. Where do you think you're going?' And they said to me, 'Well, our first period teacher, the one that you saw, he's great. So we came to school. But our second period teacher is not so good, so we're going to roll.' This is not the picture that the American public has of truants! These children were making a very conscious decision to wake up early and to come to school for first period, cause they knew they were going to get something out of it, and then to leave after that because they weren't going to get any value."

And yet, thanks to teachers unions and tenure, that great teacher gets paid no more than the others.


Read more: http://www.foxbusiness.com/on-air/s...ions-good-bad-teachers-bad-kids#ixzz1d8Di1flr
 
Do you have anything to contribute to the topic of the thread? Maybe a quality education would help you.
Funny, that's what I was going to ask you. What are your qualifications on the subject of education? How far in academia did you go? What makes you an expert? You sound like some Rush Limbaugh/Fox News watching right wing sheep to me repeating what he's been told.
 
Funny, that's what I was going to ask you. What are your qualifications on the subject of education? How far in academia did you go? What makes you an expert? You sound like some Rush Limbaugh/Fox News watching right wing sheep to me repeating what he's been told.

Says the Democrat/Union parrot.
 
We don't have the union problem as bad here in NC. Teacher's base salaries are paid by the State and local school boards give them extra pay or not depending on their own criteria.
 
A just-retired public school principal writes me after my special:


You nailed the problems and issues in today's public education... with the current teacher unions, textbook companies, and especially teacher TENURE... teacher "tenure" is all but stopping 21st Century educational reform all over the United States.

Tenure is bad. Some teachers are more effective than others - yet the union frowns on giving the best teachers extra pay for excellence. They even frown on paying lousy teachers less. They snarl at the idea of ever firing a teacher. Public school teachers typically get tenure once they've taught for about 3 years. After that, the union and civil service protection make it just about impossible to fire them. They basically have a job for life.

In Patterson, NJ, it's ex-police detective Jim Smith's job to investigate claims against bad teachers and to try to go through the union-created, insane process of trying to fire REALLY bad ones. He says it's so hard to fire anyone that it took years to fire a teacher who hit kids. "It took me four years and $283,000. $127,000 in legal fees plus what it cost to have a substitute fill in, all the while he's sitting home having popcorn," said Smith.

This is not how it works in real life: the private sector. Remember when GE was a phenomenal growth company, rather than the bloated "partner" with Big Government it is now? Its CEO at the time, Jack Welch, said what was crucial was "identifying the bottom 10 percent of employees, giving them a year to improve, and then firing them if they didn't get better."

That idea influenced charter school leader Deborah Kenny, and because her schools are non-union, she can fire. It's made a difference. Her students outscore the union school's students on all the standardized tests. "We fired as many as we must and as little as we can." She says the good teachers want the bad teachers out. "Somebody who doesn't carry their weight... brings down the morale of the whole team of teachers."

I asked some charter teachers if it bothered them that they could get fired at any minute. "If I'm not doing my job per se and I was fired for that, so be it," said one. Another told me, "If I was a doctor and I wasn't good, I mean I wouldn't have a job, no one would come to me, right?"

But the unions say that failing teachers should be given chances to improve. Lots of chances. "We need to lift up the low performers and help them do better," Nathan Saunders, head of the DC teachers union told me. "There's a cost of firing teachers... the quality of life of that person is deeply affected by that termination."

Boo-hoo. Notice that he didn't mention the kids who are stuck in that class with the teacher being a second, third, or fourth chance?

Former DC schools chancellor Michelle Rhee told me a story about visiting a high school where class after class had terrible attendance. She asked a teacher,


"Where are all the kids?" She was told that low-attendance was expected on a Friday, especially when it was raining. She then noticed a crowded classroom. "There are 30 kids ... not enough desks for the kids that were there. I'm watching the teacher. This is a pretty engaging lesson. So I go up to one of the kids, a young man. And I said, "What do you think about the teacher?" He said, "This is my best teacher, bar none."

Rhee later left the school and saw that same student and two of his friends leaving.


"I said, 'Excuse me, young man. Where do you think you're going?' And they said to me, 'Well, our first period teacher, the one that you saw, he's great. So we came to school. But our second period teacher is not so good, so we're going to roll.' This is not the picture that the American public has of truants! These children were making a very conscious decision to wake up early and to come to school for first period, cause they knew they were going to get something out of it, and then to leave after that because they weren't going to get any value."

And yet, thanks to teachers unions and tenure, that great teacher gets paid no more than the others.

Read more: http://www.foxbusiness.com/on-air/s...ions-good-bad-teachers-bad-kids#ixzz1d8Di1flr

(Excerpt) Public school teachers typically get tenure once they've taught for about 3 years.

(Commenting on firing a teacher) "It took me four years and $283,000. $127,000 in legal fees plus what it cost to have a substitute fill in, all the while he's sitting home having popcorn," said Smith.

This is not how it works in real life: the private sector. Remember when GE was a phenomenal growth company, rather than the bloated "partner" with Big Government it is now? Its CEO at the time, Jack Welch, said what was crucial was "identifying the bottom 10 percent of employees, giving them a year to improve, and then firing them if they didn't get better."(End)

If one can not evaluate an employee's performance after three years, not one year but three years before they offer tenure, they shouldn't be in the position to offer tenure.

The need for unions is because we all know that personality conflicts play a major roll in firing. The most obvious example is when there is a change in political parties. In the private sector egos get in the way and far to often the boss thinks he's king/queen.

Years ago, I was hired by the government to supervise unionized employees. Being hired from the outside rather than promoted from within I was given the heads-up the union was strong and supervising required a certain finesse. Having worked previously as a union and non-union member in other places I knew exactly what "finesse" was required. It required treating employees with decency and respect and consideration. That's all. It meant one didn't conduct themselves like a tyrant.

Getting back to the teachers, sure, there may be the odd one that's not fit for the job but let's remember the person/people responsible for offering tenure have three years in which to evaluate the person. Three years! Perhaps the person/people doing the evaluating need to be fired.
 
(Excerpt) Public school teachers typically get tenure once they've taught for about 3 years.

(Commenting on firing a teacher) "It took me four years and $283,000. $127,000 in legal fees plus what it cost to have a substitute fill in, all the while he's sitting home having popcorn," said Smith.

This is not how it works in real life: the private sector. Remember when GE was a phenomenal growth company, rather than the bloated "partner" with Big Government it is now? Its CEO at the time, Jack Welch, said what was crucial was "identifying the bottom 10 percent of employees, giving them a year to improve, and then firing them if they didn't get better."(End)

If one can not evaluate an employee's performance after three years, not one year but three years before they offer tenure, they shouldn't be in the position to offer tenure.

The need for unions is because we all know that personality conflicts play a major roll in firing. The most obvious example is when there is a change in political parties. In the private sector egos get in the way and far to often the boss thinks he's king/queen.

Years ago, I was hired by the government to supervise unionized employees. Being hired from the outside rather than promoted from within I was given the heads-up the union was strong and supervising required a certain finesse. Having worked previously as a union and non-union member in other places I knew exactly what "finesse" was required. It required treating employees with decency and respect and consideration. That's all. It meant one didn't conduct themselves like a tyrant.

Getting back to the teachers, sure, there may be the odd one that's not fit for the job but let's remember the person/people responsible for offering tenure have three years in which to evaluate the person. Three years! Perhaps the person/people doing the evaluating need to be fired.

Is this something your wrote or did you cut and paste from the Onion?
 
Alias and dumberthanyou are totally limited to teabagger talking points as they are not educated. Talk about not bringing anything to the board. White trash hatred. Ok we got it
 
One of the major goals of the radical right has always been to take power away from workers in the workplace. To force them to work for subsistence wages and to control their lives. We know that. The teacher's union is an overall liberal organization that votes democratic. This has nothing to do about education but everything to do about stopping support for the Democratic Party and busting every union in this country. How much support are you going to get next election from the police, firemen and teachers? The right is cutting it's own throat, just look at the Ohio results in the last election.

One question for you... who hires lazy, unqualified workers? Is it the union or is it the company?
If a company hires lazy workers the only thing a union can do is to protect their right to work to a certain point. The blame go to whoever hires bad workers.

Most of you extremists right wingers see union organization as a commie plot but that's just your brainwashing showing.
 
One of the major goals of the radical right has always been to take power away from workers in the workplace. To force them to work for subsistence wages and to control their lives. We know that. The teacher's union is an overall liberal organization that votes democratic. This has nothing to do about education but everything to do about stopping support for the Democratic Party and busting every union in this country. How much support are you going to get next election from the police, firemen and teachers? The right is cutting it's own throat, just look at the Ohio results in the last election.

One question for you... who hires lazy, unqualified workers? Is it the union or is it the company?
If a company hires lazy workers the only thing a union can do is to protect their right to work to a certain point. The blame go to whoever hires bad workers.

Most of you extremists right wingers see union organization as a commie plot but that's just your brainwashing showing.

How much does it cost and how long does it take to fire a bad teacher? What's the process?
 
One of the major goals of the radical right has always been to take power away from workers in the workplace. To force them to work for subsistence wages and to control their lives. We know that. The teacher's union is an overall liberal organization that votes democratic. This has nothing to do about education but everything to do about stopping support for the Democratic Party and busting every union in this country. How much support are you going to get next election from the police, firemen and teachers? The right is cutting it's own throat, just look at the Ohio results in the last election.

One question for you... who hires lazy, unqualified workers? Is it the union or is it the company?
If a company hires lazy workers the only thing a union can do is to protect their right to work to a certain point. The blame go to whoever hires bad workers.

Most of you extremists right wingers see union organization as a commie plot but that's just your brainwashing showing.

How do you believe teachers union laws benefit students?
 
I prefer breaking up the government monopoly and allowing people to choose the best possible education available with the money that would otherwise go to the monopoly. If you want your child to learn to feel good about themselves because you tell them they are special rather than because they have accomplished something, by all means send them to a school that does that. My children will go to a school where they earn a grade and feel good because they have done something worth feeling good about. If you want your kid to learn that it would be better if we got rid of currency and all lived off of the love of mankind, then send them to a school that does that. My children will learn that there is no shame in earning a good living...

So forth.

Why can they have choices in Sweden and we can't here? We know it works, and that it works well. Each nation, like Sweden, that has tried it has done better, yet we continue to support a government monopoly that rewards mediocrity.

http://www.heritage.org/research/re...n-an-interview-with-thomas-idergard-of-timbro
 
Unions are akin to a socialistic society- they breed mediocrity.
You don't know what the hell your talking about. My grandfather was a railroad conductor and a life long union man. You calling him a mediocrity? My best friend is a master electrician and a union man. You think he's a mediocrity? You know what it takes to obtain masters certification? My Uncle was a master machinist, as in skilled tradesman, it was his union that paid for his training and organized his apprenticeship. You think he's a mediocrity? My cousins oldest son is an AP math teacher at a local high school. He's a union man. He has a masters in applied mathematics. You telling me he's a mediocrity? My sisters is an BS/RN. Works for the local community hospital. She's a union member. Are you telling me that she's a mediocrity? You should be so lucky that if your sick to be in a hospital with all those mediocrities of her caliber.

The fact of the matter is that Unions don't breed mediocrity. What they have done is create our middle class.
 
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