Understanding Socialism

[Cancel 2018. 3]

Apple, don't let him lie to you. Medicaid isn't our country's solution for giving health insurance to the poor. It gives very limited health insurance to a very limited number of well defined eligibility groups that the majority of poor people do not qualify for. To qualify you have to be pregnant (sorry men), have eligible children who are super poor, be disabled, or be very old and poor and for some reason not qualify for medicare.

what about medicare? why not expand that....

 

[USFREEDOM911]

You are so fucking convoluted I don't even know what you are talking about anymore! You just claimed "there are private clinics trying to start up in Canada." Why would this be the case if the socialized system were filling the needs? IF everyone were happy under the socialized system, there wouldn't be anyone interested in trying to start up a private clinic! Obviously, there IS a market for it, obviously, there is a demand!



You just said, it's already happening in Canada! And we've already established that the US doesn't have a "pay or suffer" system... MEDICARE... MEDICAID... INDIGENT CARE... STATE HEALTH CLINICS! You've not addressed any of these, and they certainly DO provide a great deal of medical care for the suffering, without regard for their ability to PAY!



BY WHO??? Not the insurance companies or consumer anymore, you've dismantled that system! They are paid by THE GOVERNMENT, and this will be determined by THE GOVERNMENT, and if the doctors don't like the amount, what then? Are we going to FORCE people to practice medicine against their will? Is THAT what comes next?



You have no idea of what you're talking about! You are not going to have any fucking rights! If you want medical care, you will have to go where the government says you can go, and see the doctor the government says you can see, and he will perform the treatments the government says he can perform, and you will wait as long as you have to wait for it, the government is not going to give a damn how long you had to wait! If you aren't satisfied with your medical care, you can bitch to the government, and see where that gets you!



And you just mindlessly rant on about what? You are not even coherent anymore! Do you think when we have a socialized system in place, every podunk town across America is going to have a plethora of medical specialists popping up everywhere? What in the fuck is your point here? When you add 40 million people and subtract 45% of the doctors, you are going to have a damn problem! Do you not understand that?



Again.... 40 million EXTRA people are going to be cared for... 45% fewer doctors are going to be there to do the caring! I don't care what kind of system you put in place, someone is going to die waiting for treatment. To believe otherwise, is just plain foolish.



WE DO LOOK AFTER OUR PEOPLE! Medical care is available to EVERY American! Every American citizen who can't afford health insurance is entitled to coverage under Medicare and Medicaid... Every hospital in America is REQUIRED to treat you regardless of your ability to pay! Every State in the country has state-run health clinics, FREE to the public!

What country do you live in? What planet are you living on?

During the past two weeks; I've heard two different Doctors, on the radio, say that if the Government cuts what Medicare/Medicaid pays for treatments, say that they won't be able to take Medicare/Medicaid patients anymore.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

I want you to think for a moment, OK? Just one moment. If there wasn't a problem all the places you mentioned wouldn't be required.

Do you understand? There would be no need for food closets and homeless shelters if people had enough food and a place to live. How can you not see the obvious connection? Good God, man. Talk about dense!

Dense is when you act like these organizations don't exist, and there are all these people left suffering! The US spends more on humanitarian charities than any nation ever known to man, and more than all the other nations on Earth combined! But you want to insist there are all these people out there who can't get help... well, why can't they get help? Have they never heard of these voluminous organizations in America? If they are that ignorant, a new government program is likely not going to help them much... how will they find it? They haven't found the Salvation Army, and it's in every major American city!

I have not argued that people have enough food, I am arguing that we already have organizations providing for the needy! All of this exaggerated hoopla you keep coming up with... people dying in the streets because they are too poor to go to the doctor.... is just plain idiotic and ridiculous. It's not the case in America, and hasn't been for nearly a century! We already provide free health care for the poor and elderly, it is a part of Social Security... now, SS is insolvent and broke, and we do need to fix that... but the 'system' to care for the needy is already in place and functioning.

What you are wanting, is impossible to accomplish AND give us more affordable, better access to high quality medical care in America. It just is! There have been some pretty silly and outrageous estimates tossed out, as to how much this is going to cost/save... it's preposterous because you can't possibly factor in the effects of throwing open the door to free health care for all! There is no way to predict how much that might cost!

Look... If I gave you $20 and told you this was to buy yourself food for the next week... what would you buy? Could you find enough things like bologna, bread, crackers, cheese, fruits... to sufficiently feed you for the week? It might not be easy, but I think you could shop wisely enough to do it if you had to, and not starve, don't you?

Okay, now.... Contrast that with me telling you to go to the store and buy a week's worth of groceries, and I will pay the bill! Will you spend more than $20? Will you buy bologna or steak? Remember, I didn't tell you how much to spend, I said I would pay the bill. In this scenario, is it safe to say I would be a moron to assume that my estimated cost would be around $20? Of course it would, because the scenario is changed... same with health care!

You can't estimate how much this will cost. You are about to tell every American who suffers from hypochondria, it is open season on the doctor's office! They can go every day! It's FREE! You are about to tell every AIDS patient, YES... We will give you the ultra-expensive drug cocktails you need to stay alive for the rest of your lives, at absolutely NO cost to you whatsoever! It's FREE! Need a place to live? Check into a hospital, it's FREE! Got an ache or pain... hangnail... go to the doctor, get a pill! It's FREEEEE!

Don't shove Harry Reid in my face telling me some bullshit about $876 billion... that is a fucking JOKE! They will spend that much on paper and lawyers to draft the fucking bill! This thing will bankrupt America!

 

[apple0154]

I do make the connection... Homeless shelters provide shelter for the homeless! Food closets provide food for the hungry! I don't need help, I am the one who understand we already have these organizations in place and functioning in our society! You are the idiot who want to pretend these organizations simply don't exist! You act like we don't have a single measure in place to deal with the homeless, the poor, the hungry, or the indigent in need of care! Most of these organizations have been around for decades, and our government has spent, literally, trillions of dollars supporting them! From your perspective, none of this is being done, which is why you think we desperately need to destroy our health care system!

Exactly. Those organizations have been around for decades and more are added every year. Why? Because more people require them. You believe the more soup kitchens a country has the better off citizens are.

Yes, I would say that anyone who claims medical bills are the reason they filed bankruptcy, are lying to you. That just doesn't happen. Hospitals write off MILLIONS in unpaid medical bills every year.

Good God. Do a google.

No, you are the one who doesn't know what you are talking about! You have already sabotaged your own point by admitting the Canadians have to wait in line for health care, and are literally breaking the law to get the medical care they desire! You have NO answer for how you plan to retain doctors and nurses, no answer for where the money is going to come from to pay for this, and you don't even acknowledge that we are already doing most of what you claim we need to do!

Yes, desire. Just like someone breaking into line at the bank or supermarket check-out because they don't want to wait.

As for retaining doctors and nurses dozens of countries have retained their doctors and nurses. As I asked before what do you think a doctor is going to do? Work as a lab technician? Flip burgers?

This is all about your liberal brainwashing! YES, BRAINWASHING! You have listened to this absolute BULLSHIT from left-wing socialists for so long, nothing else can penetrate your thick head! This isn't a crisis! At best, it is a silly redundant issue we simply can't afford to deal with right now! Our entire economy is teetering on the edge of a cliff, we have two wars going on, and our national debt is soaring higher than Willie Nelson at a pot festival, and you want to talk about "care for the needy" like there is some big goddamn pile of money in Washington, that we can just fritter away on a whim!

Thanks for the update there's no crisis. I'm sure the board participants can sleep easier tonight.

As for frittering away money you do have a point. Why help the poor when, as Cheney said regarding Iraq, we can afford to start a war so let's do that instead.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

And if the system in Canada is so great, they why are Private Clinics trying to start up??

To provide those with greater resources greater convienance and quality at a higher price. It's the same issue with public education. There are some outstanding private educational institutions in this nation not one of which is even remotely capable of providing a quality education to the masses of people, thus we have public education and that's why there is a demand for a public option in health care. This fucking "socialism" bogeyman is for the brain dead. There is a time and a place of socialized programs in our nation. Particularly when the problem(s) being faced are as huge as public education, public health, national defense, etc.

The rantings of a Dixie are the rantings of an ideologue who cares more for his/her ideology then solving problems.

 

[apple0154]

And if the system in Canada is so great, then why are Private Clinics trying to start up??

For money. Why else?

As I mentioned before the average cost for a blood draw and work-up runs around $125.00+ at a private clinic. Wait time: 15 minutes, in and out.

A government run clinic is free. Wait time: one hour, in and out.

Some people want special service. It's no different than going to a fine restaurant for dinner and paying $40.00 just for the entrée or going to a family restaurant and getting the entire meal, dessert included, for $9.95. Salmon is salmon regardless of what spices it has or marinade it sat in. If one is to avoid red meat and increase their fish intake both versions of salmon satisfy the requirement.

The problem with private clinics is not that they offer a choice. The problem is the person who goes there does not want to pay the tax everyone else pays for government medical because they are paying the doctor themselves. Of course, if they have a financial set-back or are struck with a major illness and can't afford a private clinic any longer guess where they go.

So, we end up with the "big shot" paying privately for their medical while bad-mouthing the government plan and then crawling back to the government plan when circumstances change. As soon as they're facing a procedure costing over $100,000 and not covered by their private insurance their "specialness" takes a back seat.

Maybe if the government gave people the option to either have their own insurance or be on a government plan.....hmmm, isn't that what Obama wanted? A government option? Why would private insurance companies be against that if they are so much better? Wouldn't people choose the better, private plan? It appears the private insurers don't think so. I wonder why.

 

[apple0154]

Dense is when you act like these organizations don't exist, and there are all these people left suffering! The US spends more on humanitarian charities than any nation ever known to man, and more than all the other nations on Earth combined! But you want to insist there are all these people out there who can't get help... well, why can't they get help? Have they never heard of these voluminous organizations in America? If they are that ignorant, a new government program is likely not going to help them much... how will they find it? They haven't found the Salvation Army, and it's in every major American city!

I have not argued that people have enough food, I am arguing that we already have organizations providing for the needy! All of this exaggerated hoopla you keep coming up with... people dying in the streets because they are too poor to go to the doctor.... is just plain idiotic and ridiculous. It's not the case in America, and hasn't been for nearly a century! We already provide free health care for the poor and elderly, it is a part of Social Security... now, SS is insolvent and broke, and we do need to fix that... but the 'system' to care for the needy is already in place and functioning.

What you are wanting, is impossible to accomplish AND give us more affordable, better access to high quality medical care in America. It just is! There have been some pretty silly and outrageous estimates tossed out, as to how much this is going to cost/save... it's preposterous because you can't possibly factor in the effects of throwing open the door to free health care for all! There is no way to predict how much that might cost!

Look... If I gave you $20 and told you this was to buy yourself food for the next week... what would you buy? Could you find enough things like bologna, bread, crackers, cheese, fruits... to sufficiently feed you for the week? It might not be easy, but I think you could shop wisely enough to do it if you had to, and not starve, don't you?

Okay, now.... Contrast that with me telling you to go to the store and buy a week's worth of groceries, and I will pay the bill! Will you spend more than $20? Will you buy bologna or steak? Remember, I didn't tell you how much to spend, I said I would pay the bill. In this scenario, is it safe to say I would be a moron to assume that my estimated cost would be around $20? Of course it would, because the scenario is changed... same with health care!

You can't estimate how much this will cost. You are about to tell every American who suffers from hypochondria, it is open season on the doctor's office! They can go every day! It's FREE! You are about to tell every AIDS patient, YES... We will give you the ultra-expensive drug cocktails you need to stay alive for the rest of your lives, at absolutely NO cost to you whatsoever! It's FREE! Need a place to live? Check into a hospital, it's FREE! Got an ache or pain... hangnail... go to the doctor, get a pill! It's FREEEEE!

Don't shove Harry Reid in my face telling me some bullshit about $876 billion... that is a fucking JOKE! They will spend that much on paper and lawyers to draft the fucking bill! This thing will bankrupt America!

You make it sound like it's a problem. Want the solution? Read this: [ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_health_care[/ame]

Pick a country and see how they deal with universal health care. Then tell me what you feel the US is incapable of doing.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

You make it sound like it's a problem. Want the solution? Read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_health_care

Pick a country and see how they deal with universal health care. Then tell me what you feel the US is incapable of doing.

Dixie's an extremist and an isolationist so pointing out that the USA is the only wealthy industrialized nation with out universal health care access is not going to impress him. Nor would the fact that we could pay for it simply by ending the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Nor will he accept that fact that the communist nations which foist universal health care on their nations are spending half the money, as a percentage on GNP, and obtaining significantly superior results then we do.

Dixie is much more impressed in what an authority on the subject, like Rush Limbaugh, has to say then anyone else.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

You make it sound like it's a problem. Want the solution? Read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_health_care

Pick a country and see how they deal with universal health care. Then tell me what you feel the US is incapable of doing.

I don't need to read socialist propaganda! You read it! You keep believing in Socialism! In 50 years, when you are cowering in a bunker somewhere, hoping someone comes to save you from the tyrants who took over your country, just remember this conversation!

You and those like you, are brain-dead morons who can't think for yourselves. You listen to these emotive pleas from socialists who seek to destroy your country, and you follow right along behind them, just as the idiots in Russia, Italy and Germany have done. Actually, they have more sense than you... they didn't have American freedom and liberty to take for granted like you! I can actually fathom how they could have blindly followed socialist policy to their graves, but you were born and raised here, you should know better!

You have made one of the weakest cases for why I should turn my health care decisions over to the government. You have contradicted the very arguments you've tried to make, and illustrated the utter stupidity of your own points. Even when you are shown this, you just continue to rant on, like it doesn't phase you. Canada's health care system is not better than ours, or they wouldn't be desperately trying to start up private clinics! European socialist systems are not better than ours, or they wouldn't be trying to introduce capitalism into their systems to keep them solvent! We don't need to do this to help the needy, we are already helping the needy and have been for years! The quality of American health care is exceptional, or we wouldn't have the best doctors coming from all over the world to practice medicine here! The access is not better elsewhere, or they wouldn't be coming here for medical care! Over and over, every point you make is contradicted by the facts, and yet you will continue to argue in favor of a socialist policy, while denying it is socialist!

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Dixie's an extremist and an isolationist so pointing out that the USA is the only wealthy industrialized nation with out universal health care access is not going to impress him. Nor would the fact that we could pay for it simply by ending the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Nor will he accept that fact that the communist nations which foist universal health care on their nations are spending half the money, as a percentage on GNP, and obtaining significantly superior results then we do.

Dixie is much more impressed in what an authority on the subject, like Rush Limbaugh, has to say then anyone else.

What is currently being proposed will cost us more than ALL wars America has ever fought COMBINED!

 

[apple0154]

I don't need to read socialist propaganda! You read it! You keep believing in Socialism! In 50 years, when you are cowering in a bunker somewhere, hoping someone comes to save you from the tyrants who took over your country, just remember this conversation!

You and those like you, are brain-dead morons who can't think for yourselves. You listen to these emotive pleas from socialists who seek to destroy your country, and you follow right along behind them, just as the idiots in Russia, Italy and Germany have done. Actually, they have more sense than you... they didn't have American freedom and liberty to take for granted like you! I can actually fathom how they could have blindly followed socialist policy to their graves, but you were born and raised here, you should know better!

You have made one of the weakest cases for why I should turn my health care decisions over to the government. You have contradicted the very arguments you've tried to make, and illustrated the utter stupidity of your own points. Even when you are shown this, you just continue to rant on, like it doesn't phase you. Canada's health care system is not better than ours, or they wouldn't be desperately trying to start up private clinics! European socialist systems are not better than ours, or they wouldn't be trying to introduce capitalism into their systems to keep them solvent! We don't need to do this to help the needy, we are already helping the needy and have been for years! The quality of American health care is exceptional, or we wouldn't have the best doctors coming from all over the world to practice medicine here! The access is not better elsewhere, or they wouldn't be coming here for medical care! Over and over, every point you make is contradicted by the facts, and yet you will continue to argue in favor of a socialist policy, while denying it is socialist!

Canada has had universal medical for over 40 years. Where is the boogyman? Where is the communist tyrant?

You're nuts, Dixie. Whacko. You've watched too many propaganda films. Listened to too much talk radio.

Cruise the net and open your mind. Maybe sign up for a chat program and get to know people around the world. Lots of nice ladies and, if you swing that way, I'm sure guys who would like to enlighten you.

 

[DamnYankee]

Apple, don't let him lie to you. Medicaid isn't our country's solution for giving health insurance to the poor. It gives very limited health insurance to a very limited number of well defined eligibility groups that the majority of poor people do not qualify for. To qualify you have to be pregnant (sorry men), have eligible children who are super poor, be disabled, or be very old and poor and for some reason not qualify for medicare.

You lie:

http://www.dhhs.state.nc.us/dma/medicaid/basicmedelig.pdf

 

[DamnYankee]

Most folks never invested and those who did had no idea what the hell they were doing.

SS came about out of need. Life used to be the way you think it should be, again. It didn't work before. Why do you think it would work this time?

You're being purposely obtuse because you're losing the argument. Government forces workers now to "invest" in Social Security at the rate of 12.4% of their gross income. If the government were to allow them to opt out but required the same insurance and investment those who choose to do so would retire at about three times their working salary instead of with a poverty level check.

That is a fact, undeniable, and it destroys your argument.

 

[apple0154]

You're being purposely obtuse because you're losing the argument. Government forces workers now to "invest" in Social Security at the rate of 12.4% of their gross income. If the government were to allow them to opt out but required the same insurance and investment those who choose to do so would retire at about three times their working salary instead of with a poverty level check.

That is a fact, undeniable, and it destroys your argument.

It all depends on what they invested in. Either you are suggesting the government dictate what companies an individual can invest in or we are back to square one which is people do not know how to invest and will end up losing their money.

Can you imagine the uproar with the first option! Think about companies not on the government list. Talk about Socialism. The Government deciding which companies are good investments.

Sure, SM. That would go over big.

 

[DamnYankee]

It all depends on what they invested in. Either you are suggesting the government dictate what companies an individual can invest in or we are back to square one which is people do not know how to invest and will end up losing their money.

Can you imagine the uproar with the first option! Think about companies not on the government list. Talk about Socialism. The Government deciding which companies are good investments.

Sure, SM. That would go over big.

Again you are being obtuse, as no one can be that ignorant. The "three times working salary" figure is based on low risk stable investments, like muni bonds. That could be a default investment for those without financial knowledge of a fee-only financial adviser.

You simply can't admit that Social Security is ripping off everyone who pays into it, especially the poor and middle class.

 

[apple0154]

Again you are being obtuse, as no one can be that ignorant. The "three times working salary" figure is based on low risk stable investments, like muni bonds. That could be a default investment for those without financial knowledge of a fee-only financial adviser.

You simply can't admit that Social Security is ripping off everyone who pays into it, especially the poor and middle class.

Who will decide which stocks people can invest in? Do you know anything about stocks? Let's say a person starts contributing at 25 years old. 10% of his $50,0000/yr salary; $5,000/yr

To dumb this down let's say his salary stays the same for the next 20 years so at 45, 20 years later, he has $100,000 + interest. Now he decides to invest in an OTC stock. In goes his hundred grand and a week later it's worth $5,000. Do you have any idea how many people lose money on the stock market?

Or the government chooses which companies one can invest in. Imagine all the companies that would move their Head Office to Chicago. :lol:

Then there's the government bureaucracy. How many government employees are going to be needed to check everybody's individual investments unless the government has a specific list of companies in which one can invest in which case the government would then have the power to promote certain companies. The new Wall Street would be Lasalle Street.

Think, man. Think.

 

[Damocles]

The system has been in place since 1967/8. That's over 40 years of people saying the government is going broke, the system can't be supported, people are going to die due to poor care.......

Yes, and yet they work towards dismantling it in baby steps. First step, privatized clinics.

 

[ib1yysguy]

what about medicare? why not expand that....

Because that's true single payer and it's a political nonstarter. Dixie goes and calls this VERY limited public option socialism, what do you think Dixie'd do if they actually proposed REAL socialistic medicine?

 

[apple0154]

Yes, and yet they work towards dismantling it in baby steps. First step, privatized clinics.

It's going to take a lot of steps to dismantle 40 years of universal medical.

 

[Cancel 2018. 3]

Because that's true single payer and it's a political nonstarter. Dixie goes and calls this VERY limited public option socialism, what do you think Dixie'd do if they actually proposed REAL socialistic medicine?

i believe that the government, owning/operating its own insurance company, something traditionally left to private entities, is a socialist policy....just as if the government owned an auto company....oh wait, they do