Unaffordable at Any Speed

WinterBorn said:
The Volt is still little more than a hybrid. The LEAF's cost being so much less would allow families to have a second gas guzzler for any trips over 50 miles.
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Most families can't afford a $28,000 toy. It's a rich man's toy because it is largely useless as transportation more than 40 miles from a house. Unless people get used to waiting forever for their car to "fill up"...

Seriously, this stuff needs to go much further before it can be taken seriously. 100 mile ranges suck. Even for people who live in cities. Even my grandmother regularly drove too far away to get back home on one charge.

It will be better soon, but we can't afford to subsidize ourselves into bankruptcy in order to make them affordable for regular folks. First make them useful and comparable to today's product both in price and in usefulness, if it is comparable people will buy them.
 
Southern Man said:
I'm talking about an all-electric, actually Damo.

I think that you are looking at this through the Damo lens. Some people need a small car to get them around urban areas, well within the range of an all-electric vehicle. I use to commute from my suburban home to my work in the city- a 30 way round trip, and an all-electric would have been fine for that. Sure it would suck for many of my other needs, but a two car family might be able to justify one.

There is a niche market for these. Curb-side charging stations would increase the size of that market by providing extended range as well as a "plan B" if the battery is getting on in age.

An example of a niche market for hybrids is city taxis. They get better mileage in town than on the highway, need less brake maintenance, and produce fewer emissions.

Same for trash trucks. They go through many suburban areas and the stop-start cycle is about 100'. Brake-gas, brake-gas, all day long. A hybrid would be perfect for that.
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No, I'm looking at it through the lens of reality. I take an example of somebody I know who doesn't drive all that much, yet she still couldn't use this toy as more than a second car, and absolutely can't afford such an expensive toy just for tooling around as a second vehicle. The distance limitation is just too small to make it useful as a family's only transportation. Even an old lady who lives alone needs less restriction than that.

Seriously, man. A 100 mile trip zone is too restrictive even for city dwellers, and most people do not have hours to wait for their car to fill up when they want to get back home. Only people who have money to waste on second vehicles that they can use for recreational purposes could use this vehicle. Again, while the Volt costs twice as much it's limitations are not even close to as restrictive and an average of over 100 miles to the gallon is remarkable.

(BTW - One can spend about $7K to get their Prius or Ford Escalade (which uses the same drive system as the Prius) to get that same kind of mileage. They'll change the Prius to a plug in electric-hybrid like the Volt. They add batteries and change the chip to enhance performance of the electric boost engines as well as adding a plug to allow you to charge up the batteries... This change does not mean that gasoline won't be used, only that you'll get on average over 100 miles to the gallon.)
 
they are toy's for rich limosine liberals, nothing more.
The price of smugg is $41,000 that's high considering Prius smug is only $25,000
 
Damocles said:
No, I'm looking at it through the lens of reality. I take an example of somebody I know who doesn't drive all that much, yet she still couldn't use this toy as more than a second car, and absolutely can't afford such an expensive toy just for tooling around as a second vehicle. The distance limitation is just too small to make it useful as a family's only transportation. Even an old lady who lives alone needs less restriction than that.

Seriously, man. A 100 mile trip zone is too restrictive even for city dwellers, and most people do not have hours to wait for their car to fill up when they want to get back home. Only people who have money to waste on second vehicles that they can use for recreational purposes could use this vehicle. Again, while the Volt costs twice as much it's limitations are not even close to as restrictive and an average of over 100 miles to the gallon is remarkable.

(BTW - One can spend about $7K to get their Prius or Ford Escalade (which uses the same drive system as the Prius) to get that same kind of mileage. They'll change the Prius to a plug in electric-hybrid like the Volt. They add batteries and change the chip to enhance performance of the electric boost engines as well as adding a plug to allow you to charge up the batteries... This change does not mean that gasoline won't be used, only that you'll get on average over 100 miles to the gallon.)
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No you're looking at it through your reality. Again there is a niche market for an affordable all-electric. The Volt doesn't cut it. When I commuted I could have driven this to work, plugged it in for the 9 hours I'm there, then driven back home. Weekends use my wife's car. Lots of folks are in this as well as other situations.
 
Southern Man said:
No you're looking at it through your reality. Again there is a niche market for an affordable all-electric. The Volt doesn't cut it. When I commuted I could have driven this to work, plugged it in for the 9 hours I'm there, then driven back home. Weekends use my wife's car. Lots of folks are in this as well as other situations.
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Right, a second vehicle. A relatively useless one. You either can afford to run two vehicles, or this is useless for you. Only a "niche" market.

I prefer comparable vehicles than could actually get me to work and back home. You could have used it... because you can afford two cars. I could probably use it for weekend fun, as my wife's car for shopping... But I look at real usefulness. How many people can afford a $28K toy that can only take them very close to home, or can only be used by people who have time to waste while their car charges?...

This is a rich man's toy, that you are proud you could "use" it doesn't change what I am saying about it. It's a toy, a relatively annoyingly useless one. How many places of work are going to pay for your electricity to charge your car?
 
Damocles said:
Right, a second vehicle. A relatively useless one. You either can afford to run two vehicles, or this is useless for you. Only a "niche" market.

I prefer comparable vehicles than could actually get me to work and back home. You could have used it... because you can afford two cars. I could probably use it for weekend fun, as my wife's car for shopping... But I look at real usefulness. How many people can afford a $28K toy that can only take them very close to home, or can only be used by people who have time to waste while their car charges?...

This is a rich man's toy, that you are proud you could "use" it doesn't change what I am saying about it. It's a toy, a relatively annoyingly useless one. How many places of work are going to pay for your electricity to charge your car?
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We need two vehicles because we each have jobs. One of those could be primarily for commute. The way it is now she has a sedan and I have a big SUV. When she needs a bigger vehicle she borrows mine. She doesn't need her own SUV. When I commuted I drove a Mustang with a small trunk and for all intents only two seats. When I needed a bigger car to go to Home Depot I took her car, which at that time was an SUV.
 
Southern Man said:
We need two vehicles because we each have jobs. One of those could be primarily for commute. The way it is now she has a sedan and I have a big SUV. When she needs a bigger vehicle she borrows mine. She doesn't need her own SUV. When I commuted I drove a Mustang with a small trunk and for all intents only two seats. When I needed a bigger car to go to Home Depot I took her car, which at that time was an SUV.
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Neither of which leaves you stranded and waiting while it recharges. Again, would your work "donate" the electricity to recharge your car? Or are you just spouting nonsense? Or are you saying that when you commuted that way there were already meters set up for you to charge your car and pay for your own use of electricity?

These cars are largely useless the the largest portion of society, as you said a "niche" market. And that "niche" are those who can afford to have a second vehicle that would be almost entirely useless as a family car if your first vehicle might have problems...

You either can afford a toy like this, or not. Either way, it is relatively useless at this point of development, except to those who can afford a toy that might leave them stranded...
 
Damocles said:
Neither of which leaves you stranded and waiting while it recharges. Again, would your work "donate" the electricity to recharge your car? Or are you just spouting nonsense? Or are you saying that when you commuted that way there were already meters set up for you to charge your car and pay for your own use of electricity?

These cars are largely useless the the largest portion of society, as you said a "niche" market. And that "niche" are those who can afford to have a second vehicle that would be almost entirely useless as a family car if your first vehicle might have problems...

You either can afford a toy like this, or not. Either way, it is relatively useless at this point of development, except to those who can afford a toy that might leave them stranded...
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The Volt has a gas powered generator that gives you 300 miles on top of the 40 you get with a full charge. It's not at all useless, it's just not economical at this stage of development and will be purchased by persons for whom convenience and cost are not driving their decision-making,
 
Damocles said:
Neither of which leaves you stranded and waiting while it recharges. Again, would your work "donate" the electricity to recharge your car? Or are you just spouting nonsense? Or are you saying that when you commuted that way there were already meters set up for you to charge your car and pay for your own use of electricity?

These cars are largely useless the the largest portion of society, as you said a "niche" market. And that "niche" are those who can afford to have a second vehicle that would be almost entirely useless as a family car if your first vehicle might have problems...

You either can afford a toy like this, or not. Either way, it is relatively useless at this point of development, except to those who can afford a toy that might leave them stranded...
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Since the round trip is less than 1/3 of the advertised range the vehicle wouldn't leave me stranded. If I had to charge at work I'd obviously have to make prior arrangements with the owner of the business.

In the rare event that my wife's SUV would be in the shop we'd either have to limit our trips to less than 50 miles each way or get a loaner from the shop. Currently my Ford dealer gives a free loaner to any repair within warranty of more that $250. The last time I used this service they gave me a shitty Kia but I did have the option to upgrade to an Explorer for $15/ day.
 
NigelTufnel said:
The Volt has a gas powered generator that gives you 300 miles on top of the 40 you get with a full charge. It's not at all useless, it's just not economical at this stage of development and will be purchased by persons for whom convenience and cost are not driving their decision-making,
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Read the thread. I already said the Volt would be cool, but its price makes it useless except to rich people. SM and others are defending the usefulness of the fully electronic 100 mile ranged vehicle built by Mazda or Nissan or some other company... A $26K toy that can only get you 100 miles round-trip.
 
Damocles said:
Read the thread. I already said the Volt would be cool, but its price makes it useless except to rich people.
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You seemed to be arguing that you get 40 miles out of the thing and then have to push it. That's not the case at all. It gets 40 on a charge and 300 on a tank of gas. That range is more than sufficient for most people for most purposes.

The price is steep and makes it impractical for most people, but it doesn't make it useless.
 
NigelTufnel said:
You seemed to be arguing that you get 40 miles out of the thing and then have to push it. That's not the case at all. It gets 40 on a charge and 300 on a tank of gas. That range is more than sufficient for most people for most purposes.

The price is steep and makes it impractical for most people, but it doesn't make it useless.
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No, I am arguing about the usefulness of a totally different vehicle. Read the fricking thread before you wade in, you are looking particularly foolish at this moment.

We're talking about a different vehicle, and you'll be able to see what I wrote about the Volt if you actually read the thread.
 
Damo not everyone lives like you do and need a 4WD vehicle that can climb over boulders for 50 miles just to go to the store and buy a six-pack. Lots of folks live in areas where the majority of their trips are less than 20 miles round trip. If a car was convenient, safe, attractive and cheap folks would buy it. That is all.
 
Damocles said:
Not even, the minimal distances you can get preclude its use to any except those people who never leave a city. The Volt will get me any distance. Make it a pick up truck that can pull something and you might get me to buy one.
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FYI.. Here it is. Start from here.
 
Southern Man said:
Damo not everyone lives like you do and need a 4WD vehicle that can climb over boulders for 50 miles just to go to the store and buy a six-pack. Lots of folks live in areas where the majority of their trips are less than 20 miles round trip. If a car was convenient, safe, attractive and cheap folks would buy it. That is all.
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Again, even my Grandmother who lives in places where trips are shorter would be unable to use this vehicle as she would the car she currently drives. She can't afford two vehicles, one to take her the shorter trips and one to take her on the longer ones.

Quit being so deliberately obtuse. Trips over 40 miles would be beyond her car's return range, and she doesn't have places to stop by for a convenient fill-up, or several hours to wait while it charges. It's retarded to think that people would just be able to drop 26K on a vehicle that has such limitations because your specific trip was short and you have extra money to waste on it.
 
Damocles said:
No, I am arguing about the usefulness of a totally different vehicle. Read the fricking thread before you wade in, you are looking particularly foolish at this moment.

We're talking about a different vehicle, and you'll be able to see what I wrote about the Volt if you actually read the thread.
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My mistake. I read the thread and missed the switch to the all electric thingamabobber.
 
There you go most folks don't need a pick-up either, although one would be handy. Every vehicle that you buy is a compromise. My Expedition is great but I can't haul a sheet of drywall in it and the mileage is not terrific.
 
Damocles said:
Again, even my Grandmother who lives in places where trips are shorter would be unable to use this vehicle as she would the car she currently drives. She can't afford two vehicles, one to take her the shorter trips and one to take her on the longer ones.

Quit being so deliberately obtuse. Trips over 40 miles would be beyond her car's return range, and she doesn't have places to stop by for a convenient fill-up, or several hours to wait while it charges. It's retarded to think that people would just be able to drop 26K on a vehicle that has such limitations because your specific trip was short and you have extra money to waste on it.
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So its not her car. Stop being so obtuse and admit that many folks are in the exact situations that I describe, and none of them are your grandmother. :pke:
 
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