Ukraine runs the imminent risk of becoming irredeemably dysfunctional

dukkha

Verified User
In no way ought geopolitics be conflated with eschatology: championing supremacy in the name of exceptionalism in an era of unipolarity was hubristic enough; trying to impose a “rules-based international liberal order” in conditions of increasingly acrimonious multipolarity is even more so.

This echoes part of my argument that the logical conclusion of the rhetoric espoused by the Biden administration in the context of staging last year’s Summit for Democracy is that it considers the Russian and Chinese regimes (and some others it identifies as autocratic) to be ultimately illegitimate. This does not necessarily mean that regime change is about to become actionable U.S. policy, but it does imply that, in principle, democracies should only make tactical concessions and accommodations with autocracies. This also aligns with the Atlantic Council’s recent assessment that the Western strategy in the conflict over Ukraine is to “inflict maximum pain without direct military engagement.” But the execution of a strategy without clear tactical goals is like mindlessly driving on the highway without a destination, to paraphrase Daniel DePetris.

After one hundred days of driving, the destination remains unknown: the fundamental question of Western war aims in the conflict over Ukraine is simply not being answered—not just in public, which is fine, but most probably in private, too, which is not.
Is the aim to engender regime change in the Kremlin? The destruction of Russia’s capability to fight and win wars? A return to Soviet-era living standards for the citizens of the Russian Federation? A war crimes tribunal? A ceasefire? A peace agreement? A territorial settlement? A new European security architecture?

In the absence of a consensus answer to such and similar questions, the West remains united in an unprecedented political and financial effort to support Kyiv, which is the primary reason why Kyiv has become resistant to abandoning a maximalist warmaking and negotiation strategy.


Ukraine was and remains an object of great power relations and not a subject of international order. Indeed, it would be hard to argue persuasively that a country that depends almost entirely on the free guns, ammo, and reconnaissance supplied by foreign powers is either fully sovereign or fully independent, regardless of its regime type.

Sounds harsh? Well, the support provided to Ukraine by the West comes in the form of arms sales and weapons transfers, military training, real-time intelligence sharing, direct cash grants and massive loan guarantees, an open-door refugee policy, and the threat of repurposing billions of U.S. dollars of seized Russian assets for reconstruction coupled with the promise of spending untold amounts of Western resources on the same.

It is thus becoming increasingly hard to disprove the Kremlin’s claim that the conflict over Ukraine amounts to a proxy war between the West and Russia—or at least that it has become one since the West realized that Moscow’s “special military operation” would not produce the rapid capitulation of the government in Kyiv. Consequently, the West was able to rally behind Kyiv’s “David versus Goliath” narrative, personified by its young and telegenic president, Volodymyr Zelenskyy.

So emboldened and equipped, an important thread in the strategic thinking of Ukraine’s leadership emerged: striving for total victory, defined as the return of all lands held by Russia, even including (in some iterations) Crimea. Such a maximalist outcome is the least likely to come to fruition without enormous cost, since it seems credible enough that Russia would be willing to use a tactical nuclear weapon or two to prevent it

it is stupefying that the West’s maximalists see nothing wrong with coming dangerously close to allowing their own foreign policy to be outsourced to a state almost entirely dependent on the West’s largess to keep pursuing a goal of total victory, as defined above.

But even such hints of sobriety have often been accompanied by ante-upping public statements. These not only tactically undercut the pursuit of a policy of relative restraint (or at least escalation beyond the point of no return), but they will also make it more difficult to advocate down the road for an outcome that falls sort of what the Kremlin effectually would consider to be unconditional surrender.
https://nationalinterest.org/feature/henry-kissinger-and-ending-conflict-over-ukraine-202774
 
The obvious course of action in Ukraine was to permit its people to vote for a divorce, as the Czechs and Slovaks did. Instead we elected to keep the NATO option open for Ukraine, knowing that this was a red line for Russia. Never mind that Putin is a wicked fellow; he is a predictably wicked fellow with a well-defined understanding of Russian national interest, and his response to Ukraine’s prospective NATO membership was entirely predictable.

After three months of nearly-unanimous media predictions of the collapse of Russia, it now appears that the Russian army is close to controlling the Donbas. Extricating it will be difficult if not impossible. The result, as Henry Kissinger suggested at Davos last week, will be (eventually) a peace in which Ukraine cedes territory to Russia. All the “don’t appease Putin-Hitler” rhetoric will simply make us feel shabbier when we make the deal. We should feel shabby. We screwed this up on the grand scale.
https://pjmedia.com/spengler/2022/0...ry-to-destroy-the-country-to-save-it-n1602025
Our bathetic outpouring of sympathy for Ukraine served mainly to obscure the ugly fact that Russia has better strategic weapons than we do (hypervelocity missiles and the S-400/500 air defense systems). No doubt the Russian army is corrupt, as Western commentators aver, but not so corrupt by orders of magnitude as our Pentagon, which pays top dollar for obsolete weapons while Russia and China innovate. The Javelin and Switchblade and Stinger are fine toys, but the West remains in fear of Russian nuclear weapons–as well we should. The Biden Administration won’t sent long-range missiles to Ukraine because it fears, correctly, that Ukraine might use them to attack targets deep inside Russia and start a broader war.
 
February 2014, Ukraine Should Vote on Partition

Below is what I posed in February 2014, with citations from a “Spengler” essay in Asia Times in 2008. We could have partitioned a peaceful and intact Ukraine. Now we get to divide up the smoking ruins. Shame on us.



Ukraine Should Vote on Partition

Western governments are jubilant over the fall of Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovich, a Russian ally. They may be underestimating Vladimir Putin: Russia has the option to hasten Ukraine’s slide into chaos and wait until the hapless European Union acquiesces to – if not begs for – Russian intervention.

Judging from Russian press coverage, Moscow already has washed its hands of the feckless Yanukovich. Russia Today whimsically observed on February 22 that Yanukovich lacked the sangfroid of Mikhail Saakashvili, the former president of Georgia and an ally of the West:

Yanukovich could also have dispersed the protesters and maintained public order in the country, whatever criticism it might have brought. This is how the then Georgian president, Mikhail Saakashvili, acted in 2007. He brutally suppressed a peaceful protest and called an early presidential election, which he won, instead of an early parliamentary election, which the opposition demanded and which his party could well have lost. Unlike the Georgian leader, Yanukovich hesitated even when the Ukrainian protest turned Kiev into a battlefield. [1]

Moscow has no need of allies with weak stomachs. But it will withdraw the offer of $15 billion worth of Ukrainian debt purchases and subsidies for natural gas exports to Ukraine and leave the nearly bankrupt country to the ministrations of the West. Careful what you wish for, Russia is telling the West.

Siluanov is being mischievous. Twice in the past six years, the IMF suspended promised loans to Ukraine after the country refused to cut salaries and pensions and raise energy prices. Russia had offered a loan without conditions; any money the West offers will require austerity measures that no Ukrainian government is capable of enforcing.

I’ve argued for years that partition is the best solution for Ukraine, which never was a country but an amalgam of provinces left over from failed empires–Russian, Austrian, Lithuanian, Ottoman–cobbled together into a Soviet “republic” and cast adrift after the collapse of Communism. Lviv (Lemberg) was a German-speaking city, part of Silesia; before World War II a quarter of its people were Jews. Jews were two-fifths of the population of Odessa.

A fifth of the population, mainly in the East, are ethnic Russians; a tenth, mainly in the West, are Uniate Catholics, who have a special place in Catholic policy since the papacy of John Paul II. Ukrainian nationality is as dubious as Byelorussian nationality: neither of them had a dictionary of their language until 1918.

Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland, whose “F*** the Europeans” remark earned her 15 minutes of fame recently, ought to be fired for being plain dumb. I am no admirer of European diplomacy, but Europe will have to pay a good part of the bill for Ukraine’s problems one way or the other. I don’t see Congress offering $15 billion to support Ukraine’s foreign debt as Russia did last month. The Russians won’t abandon Ukraine, which they consider part of their territory, and they certainly won’t abandon Russian-speakers “orphaned” by the collapse of the Soviet Union. What does Ms. Nuland propose: land paratroopers? Just what are we offering to the Ukrainian opposition? American policy has alternated between indifference and impotent posturing. The Nuland tape was painful to hear for its sheer stupidity.

Russia never will permit the integration of Ukraine into NATO; were it to come to that, Russia would use force, and the West would stand by cursing. But Russia will settle for half a loaf, namely a Russian-allied Eastern Ukraine.
Whatever we do, Ukraine will continue its slow, sad slide into oblivion. The diplomats have the dour duty of managing this decline with the minimum of friction.
https://pjmedia.com/spengler/2022/0...ry-to-destroy-the-country-to-save-it-n1602025
 
After all those years of Trump supporters hugging their guns and screaming about fighting for freedom to the death, we come to find out they advocate submission and surrender to bloodthirsty invaders.
 
After all those years of Trump supporters hugging their guns and screaming about fighting for freedom to the death, we come to find out they advocate submission and surrender to bloodthirsty invaders.
you can do better then that.

So emboldened and equipped, an important thread in the strategic thinking of Ukraine’s leadership emerged: striving for total victory, defined as the return of all lands held by Russia, even including (in some iterations) Crimea. Such a maximalist outcome is the least likely to come to fruition without enormous cost

it is stupefying that the West’s maximalists see nothing wrong with coming dangerously close to allowing their own foreign policy to be outsourced to a state almost entirely dependent on the West’s largess to keep pursuing a goal of total victory, as defined above.

But even such hints of sobriety have often been accompanied by ante-upping public statements. These not only tactically undercut the pursuit of a policy of relative restraint (or at least escalation beyond the point of no return), but they will also make it more difficult to advocate down the road for an outcome that falls sort of what the Kremlin effectually would consider to be unconditional surrender.
 
you can do better then that.

So emboldened and equipped, an important thread in the strategic thinking of Ukraine’s leadership emerged: striving for total victory, defined as the return of all lands held by Russia, even including (in some iterations) Crimea. Such a maximalist outcome is the least likely to come to fruition without enormous cost

it is stupefying that the West’s maximalists see nothing wrong with coming dangerously close to allowing their own foreign policy to be outsourced to a state almost entirely dependent on the West’s largess to keep pursuing a goal of total victory, as defined above.

But even such hints of sobriety have often been accompanied by ante-upping public statements. These not only tactically undercut the pursuit of a policy of relative restraint (or at least escalation beyond the point of no return), but they will also make it more difficult to advocate down the road for an outcome that falls sort of what the Kremlin effectually would consider to be unconditional surrender.

You wanted Ukraine to surrender on Day Two of the unprovoked invasion, so it's hard to see how your calls for Ukraine's submission and surrender are any different now than they were on February 25.
 
You wanted Ukraine to surrender on Day Two of the unprovoked invasion, so it's hard to see how your calls for Ukraine's submission and surrender are any different now than they were on February 25.
It's not about me.it's not about Trump. There is a lot here . I'm not going to try to distil it. it takes about 10 minutes max to go thru this if you want to or not is your concern but it asks how does this end? It's not going to be "victory" or some such.
If you are interested the info is there, if not have a good day
~~
it is stupefying that the West’s maximalists see nothing wrong with coming dangerously close to allowing their own foreign policy to be outsourced to a state almost entirely dependent on the West’s largess to keep pursuing a goal of total victory, as defined above.

But even such hints of sobriety have often been accompanied by ante-upping public statements. These not only tactically undercut the pursuit of a policy of relative restraint (or at least escalation beyond the point of no return), but they will also make it more difficult to advocate down the road for an outcome that falls sort of what the Kremlin effectually would consider to be unconditional surrender.
 
It's not about me.it's not about Trump. There is a lot here . I'm not going to try to distil it. it takes about 10 minutes max to go thru this if you want to or not is your concern but it asks how does this end? It's not going to be "victory" or some such.
If you are interested the info is there, if not have a good day
~~
it is stupefying that the West’s maximalists see nothing wrong with coming dangerously close to allowing their own foreign policy to be outsourced to a state almost entirely dependent on the West’s largess to keep pursuing a goal of total victory, as defined above.

But even such hints of sobriety have often been accompanied by ante-upping public statements. These not only tactically undercut the pursuit of a policy of relative restraint (or at least escalation beyond the point of no return), but they will also make it more difficult to advocate down the road for an outcome that falls sort of what the Kremlin effectually would consider to be unconditional surrender.

Ukraine will not cede territory to Russia as a prerequisite of a ceasefire.

You have continuously underestimated the fortitude and tenacity of people from this culture in defending home and hearth. Their pain tolerance far exceeds what Americans, and Trump supporters in particular, could bear.

If Ukrainian counter offensives later this summer fail to recapture Kherson and significant other territories, Ukraine could be coaxed into negotiating their neutrality, and they could in the short term accept Russian occupation of Eastern territories, without formally ceding them to Russia --> subject to negotiation on their future status.
 
You have continuously underestimated the fortitude and tenacity of people from this culture in defending home and hearth.


th
 
After all those years of Trump supporters hugging their guns and screaming about fighting for freedom to the death, we come to find out they advocate submission and surrender to bloodthirsty invaders.

you do realize by now that its moon (one of yours) and a couple of libertarians who agreed with Paul that we should not have supported Europe in WW2, that oppose helping Ukraine......at least, I hope you're smart enough to realize that......
 
you do realize by now that its moon (one of yours) and a couple of libertarians who agreed with Paul that we should not have supported Europe in WW2, that oppose helping Ukraine......at least, I hope you're smart enough to realize that......

I enjoy watching you flounder.



Haw, haw................................haw.
 
you do realize by now that its moon (one of yours) and a couple of libertarians who agreed with Paul that we should not have supported Europe in WW2, that oppose helping Ukraine......at least, I hope you're smart enough to realize that......
Moon supposedly isn't even American, and it's opinion doesn't count when it comes to what America should do.

All of the Americans on this forum advocating for Ukraine's submission come from your MAGA contingent.
 
Ukraine will not cede territory to Russia as a prerequisite of a ceasefire.

You have continuously underestimated the fortitude and tenacity of people from this culture in defending home and hearth. Their pain tolerance far exceeds what Americans, and Trump supporters in particular, could bear.

If Ukrainian counter offensives later this summer fail to recapture Kherson and significant other territories, Ukraine could be coaxed into negotiating their neutrality, and they could in the short term accept Russian occupation of Eastern territories, without formally ceding them to Russia --> subject to negotiation on their future status.
man you are in complete denial. there isn't going to be any "inflection point" in Donbas, and where is this counteroffensive supposed to come from?
We cant send them more weapons -we've already sent all we got to low inventories.
Germany and Europe want this over,and Germany is not meeting it's weapons committments
Ukraine is a basketcase - large areas unlivable -some of it looks as bad as Syria post-civil war.

But i get it. Just keep sending and then when Ukraine finally decides look for peace...see OP title
Zelensky isn't helping his nation if he cant pivot to ceding territory that he cant win back
and Russia isnt going to stop as long as we keeps sending weapons
 
the West remains united in an unprecedented political and financial effort to support Kyiv, which is the primary reason why Kyiv has become resistant to abandoning a maximalist warmaking and negotiation strategy.
If Ukraine wont talk,and it's part our fault they won't,then they can have a country that looks like Syria
 
Moon supposedly isn't even American, and it's opinion doesn't count when it comes to what America should do.

You'll never know, - and the possessive form of the pronoun doesn't carry an apostrophe , you flag-waving fool.
 
I doubt Russia can take Odesa
, but the cities are mangled and millions of Ukrainians are displaced with nothing to come back to

I think it's essential for completion of this phase. If Ukraine can be supplied then it can fight back- for a while.

If I could see a route to Ukraine's salvation I'd mention it- but I can't, short of the military ousting Zelensky and reaching an agreement with the Russians.

Of course, we're ALL dependent upon journalists' reports. Then again, some of those are likely better than military intelligence.

June 4 (Reuters) - Russia's defence ministry said on Saturday its forces shot down a Ukrainian military transport plane carrying weapons and munitions near the Black Sea port of Odesa.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europ...inian-military-plane-with-weapons-2022-06-04/
 
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Moon supposedly isn't even American, and it's opinion doesn't count when it comes to what America should do.

All of the Americans on this forum advocating for Ukraine's submission come from your MAGA contingent.

both of them?......that still means a third of the Putin supporters are of your ilk....
 
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