U.S. Sam is a Sucker

[Mina]

Brevity is the soul of wit

Yet here you are, repeating yourself yet again. Look, I get it. Anything more than a sentence or two is hard on your elderly eyes and mind. But that's a personal problem. Trouble someone else with it. If you can't handle a 45-second read, there are other posts here you can stick to.

no evidence of Russian expansionism

The evidence is throughout the east of Ukraine, where they are militarily occupying another country's land, in hopes of achieving permanent territorial concessions. That's expansionism. Obviously.

Crimea and Ukraine are unique in their ties to Russia

So's Alaska. That doesn't create any legal right to the land, though.

I'm not getting US meddling in the Euromaidan turned out the pro-Russian president-
which started all this in violation of the Budapest Memorandum

You can't violate a memorandum. You really don't understand any of this, do you? Go back to your handlers and ask them for deeper talking points. I know reading for more than 45 second at a time is hard for you, but trying to get by after having just skimmed the headlines really isn't working.

 

[dukkha]

Yet here you are, repeating yourself yet again. Look, I get it. Anything more than a sentence or two is hard on your elderly eyes and mind. But that's a personal problem. Trouble someone else with it. If you can't handle a 45-second read, there are other posts here you can stick to.

lol take it up with Shakespeare. I can handle it. but it's waste of my time to try and dicern your points when you could be brief and clear instead

The evidence is throughout the east of Ukraine, where they are militarily occupying another country's land, in hopes of achieving permanent territorial concessions. That's expansionism. Obviously.

prior to the invasion there were no Russian troops in Donbas.
I've already patiently explainied Ukraine is unique for Russia, there are no plans ( and couldnt be done) to re-create the USSR

So's Alaska. That doesn't create any legal right to the land, though.

what? few Russians ever settled in Alaska.and that was for teh fur trade
Donbas is majority Russian speakers,has signage in both languages, and many worked in Russia

You can't violate a memorandum. You really don't understand any of this, do you? Go back to your handlers and ask them for deeper talking points. I know reading for more than 45 second at a time is hard for you, but trying to get by after having just skimmed the headlines really isn't working.

OMG. the memorandum was a letter of agreement..it certainly can be broken
you seriously are lacking in any of this background and show willful ignorance toward learning more;
so you trot out crap like "handlers'

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I wrote the title like the song US Blues.
Did you completely miss the 60's ? you are old enough. too bad

Figures your only knowledge of US culture is Youtube.

Which particular lyric caused you to fuck up?

Red and white, blue suede shoes, I'm Uncle Sam, how do you do?
Gimme five, I'm still alive, ain't no luck, I learned to duck.
Check my pulse, it don't change. Stay seventy-two come shine or rain.
Wave the flag, pop the bag, rock the boat, skin the goat.
Wave that flag, wave it wide and high.
Summertime done, come and gone, my, oh, my.

I'm Uncle Sam, that's who I am; Been hidin' out in a rock and roll band.
Shake the hand that shook the hand of P.T. Barnum and Charlie Chan.
Shine your shoes, light your fuse. Can you use them ol' U.S. Blues?

I'll drink your health, share your wealth, run your life, steal your wife.
Wave that flag, wave it wide and high.

Summertime done, come and gone, my, oh, my.
Back to back chicken shack. Son of a gun, better change your act.
We're all confused, what's to lose?
You can call this all the United States Blues.
Wave that flag, wave it wide and high.
Summertime done, come and gone, my, oh, my.

 

[Mina]

but it's waste of my time to try and dicern your points when you could be brief and clear instead....

I am brief and clear, but your inability to "dicern" even that is noted.

prior to the invasion there were no Russian troops in Donbas.

That's certainly what Putin claimed.

I've already patiently explainied Ukraine is unique for Russia....

Just as South Ossetia was, and just as some new place will be after Ukraine if they get away with this. With Germany, it was Austria, then the Sudetenland, then Gdansk. The way the maneuver works is you insist each new land grab is the last one, so that peace in our time can be achieved simply by appeasing the aggressor this one time, and then once that's digested, the next bite comes.

what? few Russians ever settled in Alaska.and that was for teh fur trade

Ever been to Alaska? To this day, you can see the onion-domed churches.

Donbas is majority Russian speakers,has signage in both languages, and many worked in Russia

And the US is majority English speakers, has signs in English, and many of us have worked in England. But, of course, that doesn't give England the right to seize land here. Or head to the US southwest, where there are majority-spanish-speaking areas with Spanish-language signs. Or go to Amish country, where they speak German.

OMG. the memorandum was a letter of agreement.

Signed by whom, exactly? Could you share a copy of it? A letter of agreement and a memorandum are two different things.

 

[dukkha]

the title not the lyrics you idiot. US Blues - I used US sam

do you have anything worthwhile to say at all??? of course not. go back to trolling

 

[dukkha]

I am brief and clear, but your inability to "dicern" even that is noted.

first you defend rambling paragraphs and sentences,, then you say you are brief and clear.
get back to us when you settle on response

That's certainly what Putin claimed.

show me evidence otherwise.
No Russian regulars in Donbas prior to the invasion

Just as South Ossetia was, and just as some new place will be after Ukraine if they get away with this. With Germany, it was Austria, then the Sudetenland, then Gdansk.

S. Ossetia is planning a referendum to join the Federation.. as did Crimea, as did Donbas

Ever been to Alaska? To this day, you can see the onion-domed churches.

no I havent. are they Russian Orthodox churches

And the US is majority English speakers, has signs in English, and many of us have worked in England. But, of course, that doesn't give England the right to seize land here. Or head to the US southwest, where there are majority-spanish-speaking areas with Spanish-language signs. Or go to Amish country, where they speak German.

Donbas is pro-Russian -hence the separatists war
Kyiv is pro-west (since the Maidan) if you dont understand this you dont understand Ukraine
The war started because Donbas wanted autonomy - they didn't want to be ruled by Kyiv
I dont think there will be another war with Mexico over the SW

Signed by whom, exactly? Could you share a copy of it? A letter of agreement and a memorandum are two different things.

he Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances comprises three identical political agreements signed at the OSCE conference in Budapest, Hungary, on 5 December 1994
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances

 

[Mina]

first you defend rambling paragraphs and sentences

I didn't. You're confused. Reread.

then you say you are brief and clear.

I am. You just struggle with reading, so even short and clear posts can flummox you.

show me evidence otherwise.

https://archive.ph/CWP6m

That's a Russian court document for a bribery case, in which the court referenced the Russian troops stationed in Donbas.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/russia-ukraine-troops-in-donbas-court-document-amid-concern-invasion/

Of course, Putin, at the time, was pretending they weren't there, and his little minions on the Internet are still running with that talking point all these months later, even after he openly invaded the country. It's hard, sometimes, for central command to tell their mindless social media propagandists which talking points they're allowed to stand down on.

Donbas is pro-Russian -hence the separatists war

In a similar sense, Hitler claimed the parts of Poland he wanted were pro-German and he was only going in to protect ethnic Germans. Expansionist war criminals always have a talking point to offer to explain away their military aggression, but it doesn't erase the reality.

the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances comprises three identical political agreements signed at the OSCE conference in Budapest, Hungary, on 5 December 1994
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances

So, you're referring to the agreements Putin defied when he used force in Crimea? How do you think that helps your case, exactly?

 

[dukkha]

I didn't. You're confused. Reread.
I am. You just struggle with reading, so even short and clear posts can flummox you.

your posts speak for themselves they are unduly wordy, chocked full of partisanship, and make unsupported claims

https://archive.ph/CWP6m
That's a Russian court document for a bribery case, in which the court referenced the Russian troops stationed in Donbas.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/russia-ukraine-troops-in-donbas-court-document-amid-concern-invasion/

I have also seen 1 report of transport movements -perhaps the same -dont know
If Russia has regulars in Donbass there would be satellite imagery, and more then 1 court document
You can't keep thousands of troops without being detected. Retired troops and militias were probably there, but not controlled by the Russian government

Of course, Putin, at the time, was pretending they weren't there, and his little minions on the Internet are still running with that talking point all these months later, even after he openly invaded the country. It's hard, sometimes, for central command to tell their mindless social media propagandists which talking points they're allowed to stand down on.

conflation of pre-and post invasion forces -excessively verbose and reliant on "handlers/minions"
which are your imagination

In a similar sense, Hitler claimed the parts of Poland he wanted were pro-German and he was only going in to protect ethnic Germans. Expansionist war criminals always have a talking point to offer to explain away their military aggression, but it doesn't erase the reality.

Poland was never part of Germany. Ukraine was part of the USSR until 1992 ( i think). also there was a referendum - unlike HItler
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Donbas_status_referendums

So, you're referring to the agreements Putin defied when he used force in Crimea? How do you think that helps your case, exactly?

good. now you understand the basics
If we were part of the Euromaidan, fomenting revolution and encouraging the protesters to be "freedom fighters" -which resulted in a revolution - would that be "respecting Ukraine’s Territorial Integrity?"
How about working behind the scenes to influence the successor?

A Cold War true believer who sabotaged Obama's foreign policy, Nuland is a huge risk at the State Department
https://www.salon.com/2021/01/19/wh...s-a-key-player-in-bidens-foreign-policy-team/
During the infamous call on which Nuland and Pyatt appeared to be plotting to replace or undermine elected Ukrainian President Victor Yanukovych, Nuland expressed her not-so-diplomatic disgust with the European Union for favoring former heavyweight boxer and austerity champ Vitali Klitschko to take over as prime minister, instead of the U.S. first choice, Artseniy Yatsenyuk, who indeed took power after Yanukovych was ousted about three weeks later.
~~
that's why i say we violated the momorandum. It's possible to argue otherwise, but undermining a legit foreign government and manipulating it's replacement is not "respecting integrity"of a government"

 

[Dutch Uncle]

lol take it up with Shakespeare. I can handle it. but it's waste of my time to try and dicern your points when you could be brief and clear instead

prior to the invasion there were no Russian troops in Donbas.
I've already patiently explainied Ukraine is unique for Russia, there are no plans ( and couldnt be done) to re-create the USSR

what? few Russians ever settled in Alaska.and that was for teh fur trade
Donbas is majority Russian speakers,has signage in both languages, and many worked in Russia

OMG. the memorandum was a letter of agreement..it certainly can be broken
you seriously are lacking in any of this background and show willful ignorance toward learning more;
so you trot out crap like "handlers'

I'm collecting funds for the "Shoot a Russian Officer Fund". For a $50 donation, a person will receive both a Before and After photo of their officer.

< SAMPLE PHOTO OF DEAD RUSSIAN OFFICER DELETED >

 

[Walt]

pointless response. it's an aggregate total - no one claims EU as a single entity passed the hat around

Almost all the defense money spent by the EU is spent by the individual states, not the EU level. Comparing the EU level to the USA is meaningless.

 

[dukkha]

Almost all the defense money spent by the EU is spent by the individual states, not the EU level. Comparing the EU level to the USA is meaningless.

damn you are stupid
how many times does it take for you to understand the 5 billion Euro is an aggregate total?
So you have Europe - represented by the EU
and then the USA

and you compare the 2 spending levels and find out Europe is getting a relatively free ride for their European war.
Please dont say anything else -you've already dumbed this way too far down

 

[Walt]

So you have Europe - represented by the EU

UK is no longer in the EU, so no, not so much.

 

[dukkha]

UK is no longer in the EU, so no, not so much.

OK
so add in the UK -how much aid have they given?

US has ponied up $54 billion in total + unknown amounts of costs due to support real time target acquisitions,intelligence and training.

It's not even close. If you double the 5 billion ( and I doubt that much) = $10 billion
for a European war contributed by Europe

hence the OP

 

[Walt]

US has ponied up $54 billion in total[/U] + unknown amounts of costs due to support real time target acquisitions,intelligence and training.

There is talk about sending that amount of money, but so far it is just talk. Much of that aid would go to helping people, so lets look at that. 6 million refugees have entered the EU and are getting full welfare state benefits. They get free housing, food, medical care, education, money, job finding help, etc.

Then there is the military aid, where the USA has given a third of the aid... Which is to say that Europe has given twice as much aid. (If we are giving a billion out of three billion, one third, and the Europeans are giving two billion, then they are giving twice as much.)

The USA has been good with real time intelligence... But what does that cost us? We were going to monitor the Russians anyway, so the only cost is transmitting the information to the Ukrainians. Given that the internet infrastructure outside of Ukraine is not being attacked, that is no additional cost.

 

[dukkha]

There is talk about sending that amount of money, but so far it is just talk. Much of that aid would go to helping people, so lets look at that. 6 million refugees have entered the EU and are getting full welfare state benefits. They get free housing, food, medical care, education, money, job finding help, etc.

Then there is the military aid, where the USA has given a third of the aid... Which is to say that Europe has given twice as much aid. (If we are giving a billion out of three billion, one third, and the Europeans are giving two billion, then they are giving twice as much.)

The USA has been good with real time intelligence... But what does that cost us? We were going to monitor the Russians anyway, so the only cost is transmitting the information to the Ukrainians. Given that the internet infrastructure outside of Ukraine is not being attacked, that is no additional cost.

maybe a couple billion tops is humanitarian aid -20,000 Ukainians have already shown up at our border.
It'snot our war ( except we use it as a proxy war against Russia) and we already took in 100ks of Afghans and zillions of migrants with Bidens open borders
why do we need to "moniter" Russian activity unless we plan to use it - im talking target aquisition, not just satellite imagery

Then there is the military aid, where the USA has given a third of the aid... Which is to say that Europe has given twice as much aid.

WTF is wrong with you??
EU puts in 5 billion. +UK ( whatever) and the US SO FAR has ponied up $54 billion
as usual your math/facts are trash

 

[Walt]

maybe a couple billion tops is humanitarian aid -20,000 Ukainians have already shown up at our border.

About 6 million Ukrainians have or are entering the EU. It is relatively easy to just walk over the border into the EU. They are getting full benefits, including free healthcare and education. This is going to cost billions a month for as long as they remain, and many will remain forever.

Meanwhile, the USA has resettled 12 Ukrainians. Not 12 million, not 12 thousand, but 12 individual Ukrainians. The 12 are not getting government aid, but only private aid.

There is no sane way to compare the two numbers.

https://www.reuters.com/world/why-isnt-us-accepting-more-ukrainian-refugees-2022-03-16/

US SO FAR has ponied up $54 billion

Maybe one day, if Biden can get the bill through Congress. Right now a few Republicans are blocking it.

 

[dukkha]

About 6 million Ukrainians have or are entering the EU. It is relatively easy to just walk over the border into the EU. They are getting full benefits, including free healthcare and education. This is going to cost billions a month for as long as they remain, and many will remain forever.

Meanwhile, the USA has resettled 12 Ukrainians. Not 12 million, not 12 thousand, but 12 individual Ukrainians. The 12 are not getting government aid, but only private aid.

There is no sane way to compare the two numbers.

https://www.reuters.com/world/why-isnt-us-accepting-more-ukrainian-refugees-2022-03-16/



Maybe one day, if Biden can get the bill through Congress. Right now a few Republicans are blocking it.

20,000 Uk hit the southern border last month. Senate votes today
The chamber is expected to clear the legislation for President Joe Biden’s signature on Thursday, with no time to spare before the Pentagon said it would exhaust its power to send weapons to Ukraine from U.S. stockpiles.
https://www.politico.com/news/2022/05/19/senate-40-billion-ukraine-aid-bill-00033719

 

[Walt]

20,000 Uk hit the southern border last month.

6 million Ukrainians crossed the Polish border, and were allowed to get near full citizenship benefits anywhere in the EU within a few minutes. Obviously, citizenship benefits are much more generous in the EU.

Maybe one day, if Biden can get the bill through Congress. Right now a few Republicans are blocking it.

I wrote that in the morning, before the bill got past the Republicans blocking it in the Senate. That "one day" turned out to be today.

Senate votes today

Yes, it got past the Senate, Biden will sign it soon, and then it will start to happen. You were wrong when you said, "US SO FAR has ponied up $54 billion." It turns out to have been $40 billion, and it has not happened yet. There have been stockpiles of weapons sent to Ukraine, but there is not an exact accounting of how much, and it is not close to $54 billion.

Best guess is that a third of the military aid has come from the USA, with the other two thirds coming from different European countries. That means they have given twice as much as we have.

In humanitarian aid, it is not even close. Any Ukrainian can just walk over the EU border, and sign up for generous government benefits. It has thrown Poland into chaos, and caused major problems throughout the EU... BUT THE EU THINKS IT IS WORTH IT!!!