Twain follow up

I would agree. That is how they talked at the time and why Twain used it. But take it away and input 'slave' instead. Does the story come off the same?

Pulp fiction is another example. Replace the swear words with 'gosh darn it' and 'fudge' and 'golly gee'. Does it detract from the movie to hear gangsters and low lifes talk like that?

A very emphatic YES on that 2nd one, obviously.

As for Twain, the overall story would come off the same, but it would be a somewhat tragic misrepresentation of that time period, imo. I mean, really - how many truly authentic accounts of that era, with dialogue, do we have? If that's a book that most are going to read & form their impression of that time on, it seems almost criminal to candycoat some of the references like that. We'd basically be creating future generations who don't understand the full impact of just how minorities were treated and talked about in those days...
 
A very emphatic YES on that 2nd one, obviously.

As for Twain, the overall story would come off the same, but it would be a somewhat tragic misrepresentation of that time period, imo. I mean, really - how many truly authentic accounts of that era, with dialogue, do we have? If that's a book that most are going to read & form their impression of that time on, it seems almost criminal to candycoat some of the references like that. We'd basically be creating future generations who don't understand the full impact of just how minorities were treated and talked about in those days...

That is really the point I was getting at. While the overall message might still get through, I think it is diminished and may lose some impact as a result.

I think the author of the link I provided did a great job summing up what I also feel. That said, I do want to see Pulp fiction with the 'golly gee' replacing the F bomb. That movie might actually make the movie worth watching. Samuel L and the Greaser saying that would be rather humorous
 
I would agree. That is how they talked at the time and why Twain used it. But take it away and input 'slave' instead. Does the story come off the same?

Pulp fiction is another example. Replace the swear words with 'gosh darn it' and 'fudge' and 'golly gee'. Does it detract from the movie to hear gangsters and low lifes talk like that?

I think changing the work, be it film or literature, is changing the message. The author chose his words carefully. I think this is like colorizing the old B&W movies. We take a piece of artwork and alter it to fit what we want, instead of taking the piece of art for what it is.
 
On that last question, I don't think it has to do so much with message, as with the author/artist trying to stay true to what they feel their characters would be saying at that moment.

Twain had his characters say "nigger" because that's what people said at that time. They swear so much in Pulp Fiction because they're gangsters & low lifes, for the most part, and it's likely true to how they really speak.
Does anybody remember how they killed the Breakfast Club when they made it "suitable" for TV?
 
I think changing the work, be it film or literature, is changing the message. The author chose his words carefully. I think this is like colorizing the old B&W movies. We take a piece of artwork and alter it to fit what we want, instead of taking the piece of art for what it is.

Well not just that, but not all blacks during his time were slaves. The fact of the matter is this: Black Americans were so pervasively denigrated at one time that even Mark Twain, a man who loved many of his fellow black American's, used the epithet as an everyday part of his vernacular. The need by the PC crowd is likely motivated by good intentions, but as with most of their intentions, are simply over-stepping and missing the proverbial forest through the trees.
 
Or should it be Cowpersons and Native Americans?

Or even Bovine Caregivers and Native Americans?
I wouldn't go to far with that. If you were a Shawnee or a Chippawa or an Iroquis would you want to be called "An Indian"? A good friend of mine is a Cherokee. He views the word "Indian" as a racial pejorative in the same vein as niger.

The point being, there IS a time and a place for racial/ethnic sensitivity that, s in the cleaned up version of Huckfinn, can be taken to far.
 
I wouldn't go to far with that. If you were a Shawnee or a Chippawa or an Iroquis would you want to be called "An Indian"? A good friend of mine is a Cherokee. He views the word "Indian" as a racial pejorative in the same vein as niger.

The point being, there IS a time and a place for racial/ethnic sensitivity that, s in the cleaned up version of Huckfinn, can be taken to far.

And even that attitude varies from individual to individual. I am mostly American Indian (Choctaw) and many in my family are "full bloods." Most of us don't care if we are called "Indians" or not...and often use "Native American" jokingly. But then there are some, my aunt and uncle for instance, who take offense to it.
 
Bovine Caregivers and Decendents of Indigenous Pre-Columbus Americans?
 
A good portion of the story is based on the dialect, most of the racists knew it was an "attack" on them because almost everybody sounded the same regardless of race.

Such word usage is supposed to evoke emotion, and the lesson was how Jim was a human not just "property" and how Huck came to know it. The change in language was a useful tool in that regard. Such usage opened discussion in our classes when we read the book, which allowed us to talk about a subject too often avoided today in our PC "perfect world".

The fear we have to tackle such conversation isn't something we should promote through censorship.

It's like when I heard that many schools had banned "To Kill A Mockingbird" from their schools, the lesson of the book is powerful and to miss it because some people feared word-usage "offense" is ridiculous. The best tools against racism are being systematically removed from the shelves and "translated" into obscurity.
 
I would agree. That is how they talked at the time and why Twain used it. But take it away and input 'slave' instead. Does the story come off the same?

Pulp fiction is another example. Replace the swear words with 'gosh darn it' and 'fudge' and 'golly gee'. Does it detract from the movie to hear gangsters and low lifes talk like that?

You can look at the countless gangster movies of the 40s and 50s, where there was no cursing. Brando's On The Waterfront ...one of the greatest movies of all time... was the F-Bomb being thrown around every other sentence? Nope, in fact, I don't think it even had a curse word. It clearly didn't destroy the integrity of the film. Little House on the Prairie, one of the most popular television shows of all time, dealt with the same time period as Twain's novel, but never mentioned the N-word... seldom ever dealt with issue of race, as they were back then. They could have done an episode where a black boy became friendly with Laura, and they found him just outside the Prairie, dangling from a tree... but we never saw that episode.

So, we can be entertained and enjoy the 'sanitized' version of reality, in movies and television, as well as novels. But do we get the feel of reality? I can remember watching Gunsmoke (I think it was), where they guest starred some black actor of the day, and he had some problem the 'hero' had to straighten out, and I couldn't help but thinking, the whole way through the episode, that would have never happened like that. It was like the producers didn't want you to realize he was black, or show you the reality of how differently black people were treated back then. We've done this sort of thing for decades, this idea is nothing inherently new.

I find it somewhat humorous, how they will 'overdub' movies made for the Big Screen, to make them suitable for TV... always with some lame word or phrase that just doesn't fit... You filthy lying son of a biscuit maker! I think about that, and I wonder, what is the difference in what they are doing to Huck Finn? It is the same thing, sanitizing it, so as to not be as offensive.

I catch a lot of flack for my usage of the Confederate battle flag. I am told it is a "symbol of racism" ....because racial hate groups hijacked it, and routinely use it as a symbol... but the history behind the flag means something. I hear people lamenting how we should ban the Confederate flag altogether, just remove it from the public eye... as if that somehow erases the history. Of course, when people would ask, why did they ban the Confederate flag, the answer would be, because it was a racist symbol people found offensive. Banning it, confirms the myth, and ignores the reality. The flag was flown in battle by Southern men who never owned a slave. It was the symbol of their young defiant nation, of which they gave their lives to defend. Yes, later in history, people used the same flag to denote hatred of race, at it has become stigmatized by that... this is what we should teach, the truth, not the myth.

We can't hide from our history, or change things that happened. We can 'sanitize' things to make us feel better about the past, but isn't that essentially, living a lie? Isn't that worse than simply recognizing the scars of the past and understanding we are not perfect? When they repealed the 18th Amendment, it was not expunged from the Constitution.... WHY? Because we need to see it, to remind us of our mistakes, to show us that we are not perfect always, and we can make mistakes, and those mistakes can be corrected. Why not just remove the 18th Amendment from the Constitution? It's the same thing as banning the Confederate flag or removing the N-word from Huck Finn.
 
Dixie said:
You can look at the countless gangster movies of the 40s and 50s, where there was no cursing. Brando's On The Waterfront ...one of the greatest movies of all time... was the F-Bomb being thrown around every other sentence? Nope, in fact, I don't think it even had a curse word. It clearly didn't destroy the integrity of the film. Little House on the Prairie, one of the most popular television shows of all time, dealt with the same time period as Twain's novel, but never mentioned the N-word... seldom ever dealt with issue of race, as they were back then. They could have done an episode where a black boy became friendly with Laura, and they found him just outside the Prairie, dangling from a tree... but we never saw that episode.

So, we can be entertained and enjoy the 'sanitized' version of reality, in movies and television, as well as novels. But do we get the feel of reality? I can remember watching Gunsmoke (I think it was), where they guest starred some black actor of the day, and he had some problem the 'hero' had to straighten out, and I couldn't help but thinking, the whole way through the episode, that would have never happened like that. It was like the producers didn't want you to realize he was black, or show you the reality of how differently black people were treated back then. We've done this sort of thing for decades, this idea is nothing inherently new.

I find it somewhat humorous, how they will 'overdub' movies made for the Big Screen, to make them suitable for TV... always with some lame word or phrase that just doesn't fit... You filthy lying son of a biscuit maker! I think about that, and I wonder, what is the difference in what they are doing to Huck Finn? It is the same thing, sanitizing it, so as to not be as offensive.

I catch a lot of flack for my usage of the Confederate battle flag. I am told it is a "symbol of racism" ....because racial hate groups hijacked it, and routinely use it as a symbol... but the history behind the flag means something. I hear people lamenting how we should ban the Confederate flag altogether, just remove it from the public eye... as if that somehow erases the history. Of course, when people would ask, why did they ban the Confederate flag, the answer would be, because it was a racist symbol people found offensive. Banning it, confirms the myth, and ignores the reality. The flag was flown in battle by Southern men who never owned a slave. It was the symbol of their young defiant nation, of which they gave their lives to defend. Yes, later in history, people used the same flag to denote hatred of race, at it has become stigmatized by that... this is what we should teach, the truth, not the myth.

We can't hide from our history, or change things that happened. We can 'sanitize' things to make us feel better about the past, but isn't that essentially, living a lie? Isn't that worse than simply recognizing the scars of the past and understanding we are not perfect? When they repealed the 18th Amendment, it was not expunged from the Constitution.... WHY? Because we need to see it, to remind us of our mistakes, to show us that we are not perfect always, and we can make mistakes, and those mistakes can be corrected. Why not just remove the 18th Amendment from the Constitution? It's the same thing as banning the Confederate flag or removing the N-word from Huck Finn.

This is a very strange response. It seems like you're trying to use the example of the Huck Finn controversy to justify flying the confederate flag with pride. Is that what you're doing?

People used the n-word more frequently at the time of Huck Finn - at least openly - but that doesn't mean we should use it with the same frequency today, to "honor history." Same w/ the confederate flag, imo...
 
This is a very strange response. It seems like you're trying to use the example of the Huck Finn controversy to justify flying the confederate flag with pride. Is that what you're doing?

People used the n-word more frequently at the time of Huck Finn - at least openly - but that doesn't mean we should use it with the same frequency today, to "honor history." Same w/ the confederate flag, imo...

As I said, when that flag was flown in battle, and soldiers died fighting to defend their nation beneath it, none of them were slave owners, and nearly every white person in America held the same opinion with regard to equality of blacks. The flag was not used as a symbol of racism, it was a symbol of a nation. It was only AFTER the war, when the Confederacy was disbanded, that racial hate groups adopted the flag as a symbol. To put it in perspective you might understand, the jackass symbol of the Democrat Party... you libtards understand what it stands for and means today, right? Okay, jump ahead in history 150 years, when the Democrat Party is no more, and along the way, it has become adopted as a symbol of profound mental retardation.... oh wait.... bad analogy! Sorry!
 
As I said, when that flag was flown in battle, and soldiers died fighting to defend their nation beneath it, none of them were slave owners, and nearly every white person in America held the same opinion with regard to equality of blacks. The flag was not used as a symbol of racism, it was a symbol of a nation. It was only AFTER the war, when the Confederacy was disbanded, that racial hate groups adopted the flag as a symbol. To put it in perspective you might understand, the jackass symbol of the Democrat Party... you libtards understand what it stands for and means today, right? Okay, jump ahead in history 150 years, when the Democrat Party is no more, and along the way, it has become adopted as a symbol of profound mental retardation.... oh wait.... bad analogy! Sorry!

Regardless of how it came about, the confederate flag IS a symbol of racism now. Hitler wasn't the first to use a swastika, but he sure did change its meaning.

It's a completely separate issue from whether books like Twain's should reflect the dialogue that people actually spoke at that time. What a weird interjection into the thread...
 
Regardless of how it came about, the confederate flag IS a symbol of racism now. Hitler wasn't the first to use a swastika, but he sure did change its meaning.

It's a completely separate issue from whether books like Twain's should reflect the dialogue that people actually spoke at that time. What a weird interjection into the thread...

I don't think it's weird at all. I think it is a classic example of political correctness run amok, in both instances. It is some 'authority' determining what is 'appropriate' for us to know.

Yes, Hitler, the most heinous murdering tyrant of all time, completely stigmatized and ruined the meaning and original intent behind the swastika symbol. Are you trying to equate Hitler with the CSA here? I think you should probably study more history, if that is the case. The only comparison which an intelligent person could make, is that Hate Groups adopted the symbols afterward, and use them to promote hate. In the case of Adolph Hitler, the hate was obvious in the Holocaust. With the CSA, the "hate" is manufactured by the myth, that the Civil War was about racial hatred. You see, we are somewhat 'brainwashed' in public school, by the victors who write history. The Confederate flag became a symbol of hate and rebellion long after the war, the stigma remains to this day, but it is a misinformed stigma. It was a national battle flag, and Americans died fighting under it, for what was their nation at the time. They didn't cause the situation, they couldn't help they were born where they were born, they were simply defending what was their nation. Believe it or not, that also included people of every race.
 
A good portion of the story is based on the dialect, most of the racists knew it was an "attack" on them because almost everybody sounded the same regardless of race.

Such word usage is supposed to evoke emotion, and the lesson was how Jim was a human not just "property" and how Huck came to know it. The change in language was a useful tool in that regard. Such usage opened discussion in our classes when we read the book, which allowed us to talk about a subject too often avoided today in our PC "perfect world".

The fear we have to tackle such conversation isn't something we should promote through censorship.

It's like when I heard that many schools had banned "To Kill A Mockingbird" from their schools, the lesson of the book is powerful and to miss it because some people feared word-usage "offense" is ridiculous. The best tools against racism are being systematically removed from the shelves and "translated" into obscurity.
My experience Damo is that if a book has something of significance to teach some one out there is going to want it banned from our public schools.
 
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