Trump half-billion dollar civil penalty thrown out by appeals court

[Grokmaster]

A New York state appeals court voided a more than $500 million civil fraud penalty imposed on President Donald Trump.


Manhattan Supreme Court Judge Arthur Engoron in February 2024 ordered Trump to pay around $454 million in total penalties after holding him liable for business fraud.

“Total victory in the sham NY Attorney General case!!! After 5 years of hell, justice prevailed!” wrote Eric Trump, who, with his brother Donald Trump Jr., operates the Trump Organization.

https://www.cnbc.com/2025/08/21/trump-fraud-new-york-appeals.html

So up your ass Judge Engoron ...Trump wins again

 

[Grokmaster]

Very doubtful but if @Damocles will allow us to account bet over it with him booting the loser if they don't go, i will bet you.

You have both the trial judge and the appellate court affirming the fraud and that the AG actions were correct so it is very doubtful the SC over turns it. Even this corrupt SC.

Who was defrauded? Trump's lenders had/have no problem with his loans, as they testified to.

 

[QP!]

 

[Poor Richard Saunders]

It's not a "fine." It wasn't a criminal trial. In civil trials, the relief is normally the party harmed is made whole for their loss by the loser paying to make up that loss. Since there was no party that suffered a loss--the state had no loss in this--then the normal penalty is a symbolic one of charging the loser $1. The court didn't do that.

If it wasn't a fine as you claim then this appeals court ruling that it was an excessive fine will be easily overturned since there can be no excessive fine if there is no fine. Or perhaps you are just talking out of your ass when you claim it isn't a "fine."

 

[QP!]

Who was defrauded? Trump's lenders had/have no problem with his loans, as they testified to.

The fraud is committed when you submit fraudulent documents and not if/when they default.

Before 2008 the fraudulent NINJA loans being issued by Mortgage Brokers, despite not defaulting because constant rising property values allowed people to use the increasing equity to pay for them WERE STILL fraudulent even though the market was unharmed.

In 2008 with the housing downturn, those fraudulent loans blew up and crashed the market as the risk of them was mispriced.

This is what i explain to @T. A. Gardner but he is incapable of understanding, as to why MISPRICED RISK is the fraud and how it DOES have a cost even if the blow up or default never happens.

 

[Grokmaster]

Who was defrauded?

 

[Grokmaster]

The fraud is committed when you submit fraudulent documents and not if/when they default.

Before 2008 the fraudulent NINJA loans being issued by Mortgage Brokers, despite not defaulting because constant rising property values allowed people to use the increasing equity to pay for them WERE STILL fraudulent even though the market was unharmed.

In 2008 with the housing downturn, those fraudulent loans blew up and crashed the market as the risk of them was mispriced.

This is what i explain to @T. A. Gardner but he is incapable of understanding, as to why MISPRICED RISK is the fraud and how it DOES have a cost even if the blow up or default never happens.

Not a single lender took issue with Trump's property valuations....NOT ONE.

No victims.


BTW- property values are ARBITRARY, and a matter of OPINION.


You've never bought or sold your, house before....obviously.

 

[QP!]

Celebrating this as a win reminds me of magats celebrating this as if it was a win...

 

[QP!]

Who was defrauded?

The fraud is committed when you submit fraudulent documents and not if/when they default.

Before 2008 the fraudulent NINJA loans being issued by Mortgage Brokers, despite not defaulting because constant rising property values allowed people to use the increasing equity to pay for them WERE STILL fraudulent even though the market was unharmed.

In 2008 with the housing downturn, those fraudulent loans blew up and crashed the market as the risk of them was mispriced.

This is what i explain to @T. A. Gardner but he is incapable of understanding, as to why MISPRICED RISK is the fraud and how it DOES have a cost even if the blow up or default never happens.

 

[QP!]

Not a single lender took issue with Trump's property valuations....NOT ONE.

No victims.


BTW- property values are ARBITRARY, and a matter of OPINION.


You've never bought or sold your, house before....obviously.

It is irrelevant if the lenders take issue in this type of systemic fraud.

The reason this type of documents crime is Prosecuted by State AG's and is called the 'bread and butter' and most common form of financial crime they prosecute is because the fraud impacts the CITIZENS who seek loans or Insurance and who DO NOT defraud to get lower rates.

Do you know how POOLED rates work? It is the same in both Banking and Insurance and the rate you get is based on your risk, which is based on your declaration.

If you commit fraud and get a lower price that pool you share with other citizens is now mispriced and has higher risk, and that cost is carried by those who do not fraud and cheat.

 

[FastLane]

They said NO FINE

 

[QP!]

They said NO FINE

FALSE.

They said the judge erred in making the fine too big.

That means a fine was applicable but it should have been smaller.

They also said the fraud did happen and stands and the AG was correct to bring the action.

 

[FastLane]

Not a single lender took issue with Trump's property valuations....NOT ONE.

No victims.


BTW- property values are ARBITRARY, and a matter of OPINION.


You've never bought or sold your, house before....obviously.

When I sold my last house I asked for 10K more than any Realtor thought it was worth. I got what I asked in 3 days.

 

[Grokmaster]

When I sold my last house I asked for 10K more than any Realtor thought it was worth. I got what I asked in 3 days.

Exactly.

 

[FastLane]

FALSE.

They said the judge erred in making the fine too big.

That means a fine was applicable but it should have been smaller.

They also said the fraud did happen and stands and the AG was correct to bring the action.

NO FINE you moron.

 

[Lionfish]

Appeals court upholds ruling that Trump committed fraud!
But allows him to keep his ill gotten gains.

https://nycourts.gov/courts/AD1/calendar/AppsMots/2025/apps/20250821/2023-04925,%20et%20ano..pdf

In this appeal, we have before us an actual record which demonstrates clearly
that defendants committed fraud and illegality squarely within the ambit of Executive
Law § 63(12).
[snip]
In any event, even if we were to apply the clear and convincing burden of proof,
we would find that the evidence presented by the Attorney General on summary
judgment and at trial amply satisfies that standard.
[snip]
The Attorney General established, prima facie, that the fraudulent SFCs had the
capacity and tendency to deceive a sophisticated party (i.e., a sophisticated bank).21 The
SFCs had this deceptive quality because the inflated estimated current values were
calculated based on undisclosed false facts and fallacious assumptions known to the
Trump Organization but kept from its counterparties.

Listen, you retard. Trump asked for a loan.
The bank agreed to the terms of the loan.
The money was paid back on time.
No banks objected or testified that it was fraud.

I forgot,
Fuck you!

 

[FastLane]

Exactly.

Real Estate is worth what a buyer will pay.

 

[QP!]

When I sold my last house I asked for 10K more than any Realtor thought it was worth. I got what I asked in 3 days.

And.


That is not what Trump did.

Trump went to court and filled out tax forms saying Mar A Lago was over valued at X million and they should pay less taxes on it, because it had no redevelopment rights as he had signed that away in a lifetime trust to not redevelop it for any other purpose. He then went across the road to the bank and said it was worth 10X based on him showing it with a redevelopment plan for the most expensive residential homes it had NO ZONING for and COULD NEVER get.

He also showed an undeveloped piece of property (7 Springs) as if it was fully built out with mansions on it and fully services when NO BUILDING had begun yet.

So when you sold your house for 10K more was it based on you lying to the buyer about what it was zoned for or lying to them telling them the house they could see out back (your neighbours) was yours too?

 

[QP!]

Exactly.

Exactly WHAT?

And.


That is not what Trump did.

Trump went to court and filled out tax forms saying Mar A Lago was over valued at X million and they should pay less taxes on it, because it had no redevelopment as he had signed that away in a lifetime trust to not redevelop it for any other purpose. He then went across the road to the bank and said it was worth 10X based on him showing it with a redevelopment plan for the most expensive residential homes it had NO ZONING for and COULD NEVER get.

He also showed an undeveloped piece of property (7 Springs) as if it was fully built out with mansions on it and fully services when NO BUILDING had begun yet.

So when you sold your house for 10K more was it based on you lying to the buyer about what it was zoned for or lying to them telling them the house they could see out back (your neighbours) was yours too?

 

[QP!]

NO FINE you moron.

It was the judges who referred to the 'fine' which is another way of saying 'judgment' in this case.

A meaning without a distinction here which is why the judges interchanged the two terms.