The Triumphant Return of Libertarianism

Mott the Hoople said:
George W. Bush is, with out a doubt, the US President most reflective and sympathetic to libertarian ideology and values in US history and we all saw first hand where that got us.
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Dude, stop drinking and doing drugs. GW Bush is about the FURTHEST thing from an actual Libertarian there ever could be, save Dick Cheney.
 
Just because a guy talks about tax cuts and reforming social security does not make him a libertarian.

Otherwise virtually everyone on the right would be considered a libertarian, whereas we all know that only a faction of the right is libertarian.

As for talkig about platitudes, what I said is no more banal than the way you've been shrortchanging the liberty movement. The fact is there are policies conducive to liberty and there are policies destructive to liberty.

Expansive police powers outside the Constitution are not libertarian. Bailouts are not libertarian. Undeclared wars without justification based in the defense of our country are not libertarian.

George W. Bush championed all of these. Obama continues to defend all of these.

There is a substantial difference between what we want to achieve and people who do not work in a serious way to safeguard political, economic and civil liberties.
 
Adam Weinberg said:
You're turning into the next Midcan on your anti-libertarian kick. Maybe you've just been talking to the wrong libertarians, but your impression that we're all a bunch of fundamentalists trying to convert the country to libertarianism is wrong.

You reserve the right to complain as the country moves away from the Constitution, but then you go and dismiss a growing movement, and a very young movement, that is among the foremost advocates for bringing back constitutional government.
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Adam, I was alright with fiscal conservatives until I met the teabaggers. Then I realized the whole lot of you were crazy.

I just hope we pass universal healthcare. Then it doesn't matter what the hell you guys win; I don't care. Obama will veto any attempt to repeal it and I doubt you're going to win the next presidential election. Then it will become permanent. No matter what stupid polls say.
 
Atheistmark said:
Adam, I was alright with fiscal conservatives until I met the teabaggers. Then I realized the whole lot of you were crazy.

I just hope we pass universal healthcare. Then it doesn't matter what the hell you guys win; I don't care. Obama will veto any attempt to repeal it and I doubt you're going to win the next presidential election. Then it will become permanent. No matter what stupid polls say.
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Ha. Yay for democracy.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
I'm not anti Libertarian. I'm just plain skeptical as hell about them Adam. I mean for christ sakes, "SHOW ME THE BEEF". George W. Bush is, with out a doubt, the US President most reflective and sympathetic to libertarian ideology and values in US history and we all saw first hand where that got us.

Adam, what you don't want to face and recognize is the major down fall of Libertarians. They have a credibility gap. Until Libertarians can organize themselves into an affective political force and then demonstrate that they can actually govern with out being a bunch of bumbling fuck ups, ya'll just don't have anything to sell to the American public and won't be able to over come that credibility gap.

Till then I have seen no evidence that Libertarianism is nothing more than either a self full filling prophecy for bad Government or that it is just a front for Anarchist of the Michigan Militia/Tim McVeigh variety.

You want to convince me on Libertarianism, then show me the beef.
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gwb a libertarian....lol....you aint to bright iz you
 
Adam Weinberg said:
Just because a guy talks about tax cuts and reforming social security does not make him a libertarian.

Otherwise virtually everyone on the right would be considered a libertarian, whereas we all know that only a faction of the right is libertarian.

As for talkig about platitudes, what I said is no more banal than the way you've been shrortchanging the liberty movement. The fact is there are policies conducive to liberty and there are policies destructive to liberty.

Expansive police powers outside the Constitution are not libertarian. Bailouts are not libertarian. Undeclared wars without justification based in the defense of our country are not libertarian.

George W. Bush championed all of these. Obama continues to defend all of these.

There is a substantial difference between what we want to achieve and people who do not work in a serious way to safeguard political, economic and civil liberties.
Click to expand...
Again, who's short changing Libertarians? What have they ever done? Nothing! So how in the world could I be short changing them. Show me what they have done. I didn't say that W was a libertarian. I said he was the US President most sensitive to their ideology. Which is true as most US Presidents haven't ever given libertarians a second though and rightfully so but as I said, it's not saying much.

I'll keep saying the same thing over and over again about Libertarians. "Show Me The Beef". Show me that they can actually politically organize themselves and then demonstrate that they can competently govern. Until then, Libertarians don't have a leg to stand upon.
 
cawacko said:
What you said is sad but true.
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Well hell by that standard Harding was a Libertarian. Ya'll are still missing the point. What have Libertarians ever done besides sit in their underwear and write about freedom and liberty on internet posting sites? They've accomplished exactly squat as a political movement. Their organization as a political movement is practically non-existent and their ideology is a very questionable one that has never demonstrated that it can be an affective from of government. So I ask the Libertarians. Show me the beef!
 
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Mott the Hoople said:
Again, who's short changing Libertarians? What have they ever done? Nothing! So how in the world could I be short changing them. Show me what they have done. I didn't say that W was a libertarian. I said he was the US President most sensitive to their ideology. Which is true as most US Presidents haven't ever given libertarians a second though and rightfully so but as I said, it's not saying much.

I'll keep saying the same thing over and over again about Libertarians. "Show Me The Beef". Show me that they can actually politically organize themselves and then demonstrate that they can competently govern. Until then, Libertarians don't have a leg to stand upon.
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i'm curious what makes you think he was most sensitive to their ideology based on his record as President?
 
Adam Weinberg said:
Just because a guy talks about tax cuts and reforming social security does not make him a libertarian.

Otherwise virtually everyone on the right would be considered a libertarian, whereas we all know that only a faction of the right is libertarian.

As for talkig about platitudes, what I said is no more banal than the way you've been shrortchanging the liberty movement. The fact is there are policies conducive to liberty and there are policies destructive to liberty.

Expansive police powers outside the Constitution are not libertarian. Bailouts are not libertarian. Undeclared wars without justification based in the defense of our country are not libertarian.

George W. Bush championed all of these. Obama continues to defend all of these.

There is a substantial difference between what we want to achieve and people who do not work in a serious way to safeguard political, economic and civil liberties.
Click to expand...


Outside of the tiny minority who are actually card-carrying members of the Libertarian party, I think Matt is saying, and he can correct me if I’m wrong, is that libertarian-leaning and libertarian-identifying voters overwhelming vote for Republicans and the GOP platform.

And, they overwhelmingly voted for Bush, although Kerry cut into Bush’s libertarian advantage in 2004.

It’s not a well guarded secret why they traditionally overwhelmingly vote republican. Taxes, property rights, and government social programs are first and foremost in the minds of most libertarian-leaning voters, when they are actually in the voting booth. Those issues are associated with the GOP. It’s self evident that the personal views of libertarians on liberal social issues pretty much take a back seat to taxes and spending when it comes time to actually cast a vote.

The Libertarian Vote

by David Boaz and David Kirby
CATO INSTITUTE
Cato.org:

Our data show that libertarians have generally voted Republican—66 percent for Ronald Reagan in 1980, 74 percent for George H. W. Bush in 1988, and 72 percent for George W. Bush in 2000.But they are not diehard Republicans. John Anderson and Libertarian Party candidate Ed Clark got 17 percent of the libertarian vote in 1980, and Ross Perot took 33 percent of the libertarians in 1992.

But for those on the trail of the elusive swing voter, the real news is 2004. The libertarian vote for Bush dropped from 72 to 59 percent, while the libertarian vote for the Democratic nominee almost doubled…Kerry didn't offer libertarians much except that he was not Bush, but he still narrowed the Republican majority among libertarians from 52 points to 21 points.

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=6735
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Mott the Hoople said:
I'm not anti Libertarian. I'm just plain skeptical as hell about them Adam. I mean for christ sakes, "SHOW ME THE BEEF". George W. Bush is, with out a doubt, the US President most reflective and sympathetic to libertarian ideology and values in US history and we all saw first hand where that got us.

Adam, what you don't want to face and recognize is the major down fall of Libertarians. They have a credibility gap. Until Libertarians can organize themselves into an affective political force and then demonstrate that they can actually govern with out being a bunch of bumbling fuck ups, ya'll just don't have anything to sell to the American public and won't be able to over come that credibility gap.

Till then I have seen no evidence that Libertarianism is nothing more than either a self full filling prophecy for bad Government or that it is just a front for Anarchist of the Michigan Militia/Tim McVeigh variety.

You want to convince me on Libertarianism, then show me the beef.
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George W. Bush sympathetic to libertarianism?

Man, you are absolutely off your rocker.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
Well hell by that standard Harding was a Libertarian. Ya'll are still missing the point. What have Libertarians ever done besides sit in their underwear and write about freedom and liberty on internet posting sites? They've accomplished exactly squat as a political movement. Their organization as a political movement is practically non-existent and their ideology is a very questionable one that has never demonstrated that it can be an affective from of government. So I ask the Libertarians. Show me the beef!
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lol what the fuck have you ever done to demonstrate that liberalism is a viable ideology? You're making a stupid argument, Mott.
 
Cypress said:
Outside of the tiny minority who are actually card-carrying members of the Libertarian party, I think Matt is saying, and he can correct me if I’m wrong, is that libertarian-leaning and libertarian-identifying voters overwhelming vote for Republicans and the GOP platform.
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Actually, that's closer to what I'm saying than what he is saying.

We can't be both an influential block of the GOP and independent conservative movement and also an insignificant group of outsiders to all things political. It's either one or the other.
 
Instead of interfering in the internal affairs of the People's Republic of China, you should tell the West including the Republicans and Democrats in America to hold free and fair elections.
 
Adam Weinberg said:
Actually, that's closer to what I'm saying than what he is saying.

We can't be both an influential block of the GOP and independent conservative movement and also an insignificant group of outsiders to all things political. It's either one or the other.
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Bingo.
 
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