The Rich Are Destroying the Economy

from 2002 through 2011, CBO estimates that the combined tax cuts enacted by successive Congresses cost $2.8 trillion, even as increased appropriations added $2.95 trillion above projections for discretionary spending....





These costs include the Medicare prescription drug benefit begun under Bush, the 2008 financial-rescue package, as well as expanded benefits — such as food stamps and jobless benefits — that have been part of Obama’s economic recovery effort. Most striking, the added cost of paying interest on the resulting deficits is almost as large: $1.37 trillion.



 
You are missing the whole entire point, because you are crazed and foaming at the mouth over taxes! You somehow think, the only thing that matters in any of this, is whether or not money has been taxed! The economy does not operate on the basis of what money has been sufficiently taxed and what money hasn't. The economy operates on people spending money, regardless of when or where it was taxed, or if it was even taxed at all. If people aren't spending money, the economy isn't growing, people aren't making money, and you have nothing to tax, because there is no income, because no one is spending money. You can raise tax rates all you like, it is not going to make people start spending money! THAT is the problem, THAT is why our economy sucks right now, and all you can do is myopically look at tax rates and whine they aren't high enough for top income earners. It is like your car having major engine problems, and you are obsessed with the dirt on the tires.

It doesn't matter if the money was taxed before it is put into a security trust, that doesn't make everything lovely, because if the money is sitting idle, it isn't helping the economy. As for foreign investment, you can't tax those, there is no means to do so. The foreign government where the investment is made, they can levy a tax, but it's outside the jurisdiction of the US, we have no way to impose a tax on people earning incomes elsewhere, and I am pretty sure the UN would not approve. So you won't stop people from making investments in foreign countries, and you can't tax them... so what are ya gonna do? ...And don't argue this with me, you can't tax incomes earned in foreign countries unless the US assumes sovereignty over them, and I don't think that is what you would recommend.


But what's most wrong is all the globalization stupidity which is putting free people out of work with labor from politically oppressed asian slaves.

We should stop all trade with nations which dont have basic human rights.

Hell, i remember a time when we used to fight totalitarianism instead of trying to figure out how to "get on board" with it.
 
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But what's most wrong is all the globalization stupidity which is putting free people out of work with labor from politically oppressed asian slaves.

We should stop all trade with nations which dont have basic human rights.

Hell, i remember a time when we used to fight totalitarianism instead of trying to figure out how to "get on board" with it.

Well, it's easy to SAY you should stop something, it's a completely different matter to actually DO it! How can you propose isolationism, yet control and manipulate what Americans do in terms of financial investment abroad? You don't have the authority under the law or constitution to do this, and you don't have the authority of international law either. So you are basically wanting to do something we can't do. No need in arguing with you about this, you will simply retort with "yes we can!" I can't do anything with stupid.
 
Well, it's easy to SAY you should stop something, it's a completely different matter to actually DO it! How can you propose isolationism, yet control and manipulate what Americans do in terms of financial investment abroad? You don't have the authority under the law or constitution to do this, and you don't have the authority of international law either. So you are basically wanting to do something we can't do. No need in arguing with you about this, you will simply retort with "yes we can!" I can't do anything with stupid.

The government has control of trade policy, we can refuse to allow imports from nation without conditions. This kind of financial trade incentive is world politics 101. Im interested to hear your inevitable revisionist spin on it though.
 
Actually, NO. In 1987, G.H.W. Bush signed a bill passed by a Democrat congress, which allows them to count the Social Security trust fund as part of the general funds. This money is supposed to be put away for future retirees, and not counted as money we have to spend. This change in the law, allows them to count this revenue as part of the general revenue, which made the 'budget deficit' appear to vanish under Clinton. Also, the one year in which Clinton supposedly 'balanced the budget' by using the smoke and mirrors of the SSI trust fund, the figures were based on the projected revenues for that year, which were never realized because the dotcom bubble burst. But this has made nice campaign fodder for Democrats for years, nonetheless.

Q: During the Clinton administration was the federal budget balanced? Was the federal deficit erased?
A: Yes to both questions, whether you count Social Security or not.




http://factcheck.org/2008/02/the-budget-and-deficit-under-clinton/
 
The government has control of trade policy, we can refuse to allow imports from nation without conditions. This kind of financial trade incentive is world politics 101. Im interested to hear your inevitable revisionist spin on it though.

Well okay, you are talking about something completely different now, you are talking about TRADE and not foreign investments. I agree with much of what Donald Trump has said about our trade policies, we're getting hosed. But the reality is, you have to negotiate trade policy, you can't dictate it. You or Trump might think it is that easy, to just call up the Chinese and say... FUCK YOU! It's really not that easy!
 
Well okay, you are talking about something completely different now, you are talking about TRADE and not foreign investments. I agree with much of what Donald Trump has said about our trade policies, we're getting hosed. But the reality is, you have to negotiate trade policy, you can't dictate it. You or Trump might think it is that easy, to just call up the Chinese and say... FUCK YOU! It's really not that easy!

They're not totally different. Most investment is made in the facilitation of global trade, making stuff to sell etc. You will dry up investment if you strangle business too much, but we also place business considerations inside a framework of other considerations, such as human rights, and freedom, etc. Remeber those aspects of america? We actually used to be more that what you globalized neocon fascists have reduced us to.
 
Q: During the Clinton administration was the federal budget balanced? Was the federal deficit erased?
A: Yes to both questions, whether you count Social Security or not.

No, the answer is... NOT REALLY! I could use this same pea-brain thinking and come up with a way to erase the national debt! Yeah... we own the treasury presses, right? So, we just print up $14 trillion and pay off the debt! Aren't I a fucking genius????
 
Q: During the Clinton administration was the federal budget balanced? Was the federal deficit erased? A: Yes to both questions, whether you count Social Security or not. No, the answer is... NOT REALLY! I could use this same pea-brain thinking and come up with a way to erase the national debt! Yeah... we own the treasury presses, right? So, we just print up $14 trillion and pay off the debt! Aren't I a fucking genius????



So you're unable to factually rebut the data?


I suspect you either did not read the source of my data or you did not understand what you read.


A deficit occurs when the government takes in less money than it spends in a given year. The debt is the total amount the government owes at any given time. So the debt goes up in any given year by the amount of the deficit, or it decreases by the amount of any surplus. The debt the government owes to the public decreased for a while under Clinton, but the debt was by no means erased.



http://factcheck.org/2008/02/the-budget-and-deficit-under-clinton/




Get back to me when you learn how an adult discussion works.
 
The debt the government owes to the public decreased for a while under Clinton, but the debt was by no means erased.

The debt the government owed the public decreased because of projections for dotcoms which did not pan out! It's based on revenues which never existed! The ability to count the monies taken in for Social Security, you know... our retirement money that was supposed to be in a lock box? ...the ability to count that as revenue in the general fund, enabled the Clinton Administration to CLAIM they "balanced the budget" but if you remove the billions of dollars of Social Security revenues, we didn't balance jack shit!
 
Still not citing any facts, I see.


Still misinterpreting what you read - if you read it.


Let's recap:


Q: During the Clinton administration was the federal budget balanced? Was the federal deficit erased?

A: Yes to both questions, whether you count Social Security or not.



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Want to try again?
 
You are missing the whole entire point, because you are crazed and foaming at the mouth over taxes! You somehow think, the only thing that matters in any of this, is whether or not money has been taxed! The economy does not operate on the basis of what money has been sufficiently taxed and what money hasn't. The economy operates on people spending money, regardless of when or where it was taxed, or if it was even taxed at all. If people aren't spending money, the economy isn't growing, people aren't making money, and you have nothing to tax, because there is no income, because no one is spending money. You can raise tax rates all you like, it is not going to make people start spending money! THAT is the problem, THAT is why our economy sucks right now, and all you can do is myopically look at tax rates and whine they aren't high enough for top income earners. It is like your car having major engine problems, and you are obsessed with the dirt on the tires.

It doesn't matter if the money was taxed before it is put into a security trust, that doesn't make everything lovely, because if the money is sitting idle, it isn't helping the economy. As for foreign investment, you can't tax those, there is no means to do so. The foreign government where the investment is made, they can levy a tax, but it's outside the jurisdiction of the US, we have no way to impose a tax on people earning incomes elsewhere, and I am pretty sure the UN would not approve. So you won't stop people from making investments in foreign countries, and you can't tax them... so what are ya gonna do? ...And don't argue this with me, you can't tax incomes earned in foreign countries unless the US assumes sovereignty over them, and I don't think that is what you would recommend.

Companies invest in foreign countries due to the low cost of labor. That is the primary reason.

My point is the people who receive income from those companies and live here should be taxed on the money they bring here which supports their lifestyle here. Again, what is so difficult to understand?
 
Companies invest in foreign countries due to the low cost of labor. That is the primary reason.

My point is the people who receive income from those companies and live here should be taxed on the money they bring here which supports their lifestyle here. Again, what is so difficult to understand?

And my point is, they already do, and it isn't helping the economy! A rich person living an opulent lifestyle, is not going to create many jobs or much economic prosperity. Their wealth is secure, whether it be in treasury bills, or foreign investments, or whatever... you can't touch it. You can tax as income, the amounts of wealth the rich people live on, but that will not be enough to pay the bills you've rung up. What you NEED to happen, is for these people with wealth, to spend some of that wealth making more money, earning an income.... but your actions have been counter-intuitive to that result. You believe we should tax these people more, and I am saying, go ahead... you won't stimulate the economy that way, you won't create jobs, or economic prosperity that way... but go ahead, see where it gets you! The more you tax income earning of the rich, the less of it they will do, because they have plenty of other options.
 
Q: During the Clinton administration was the federal budget balanced? Was the federal deficit erased?

A: Yes to both questions, whether you count Social Security or not.



[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]http://factcheck.org/2008/02/the-budget-and-deficit-under-clinton/

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Companies invest in foreign countries due to the low cost of labor. That is the primary reason.

Well, I'm not sure why companies invest in foreign countries, we're talking about "the rich" investing in foreign countries. I imagine pretty much any entity invests for the same general reason, there is some benefit to be gained. Low wages might very well be why a company might invest in a foreign country, but why would an independently wealthy individual living in the US? Well, because there is an advantage to them. Some countries have little or no income tax, others have dubious reporting methods and means to get around customary obstacles. Wealthy people can hide wealth all over the world, they can make money here and transfer money there, and this is never reported as US income because it isn't earned here. Now, if they ship in a pallet load of hundred dollar bills to fund their opulent lifestyle...fine, you can tax THAT as income... but there are trillions and trillions of dollars out there, and you'll never see the majority of it. From a purely business standpoint, financial moguls will tell you it is foolish to be investing in the declining US dollar, when you can be investing in the rising Chinese economy, or a host of other promising foreign opportunities.

Again, all of this wealth is there, we know it exists... the problem is getting it to come back here to this country and be spent, so our economy grows and prosperity abounds. Your idea is to drive this money away further by being completely stupid and oblivious to the world around you.
 
And my point is, they already do, and it isn't helping the economy! A rich person living an opulent lifestyle, is not going to create many jobs or much economic prosperity. Their wealth is secure, whether it be in treasury bills, or foreign investments, or whatever... you can't touch it. You can tax as income, the amounts of wealth the rich people live on, but that will not be enough to pay the bills you've rung up. What you NEED to happen, is for these people with wealth, to spend some of that wealth making more money, earning an income.... but your actions have been counter-intuitive to that result. You believe we should tax these people more, and I am saying, go ahead... you won't stimulate the economy that way, you won't create jobs, or economic prosperity that way... but go ahead, see where it gets you! The more you tax income earning of the rich, the less of it they will do, because they have plenty of other options.

Two points. First, the wealthy are going to make money somewhere and the second point is we can't lower their tax sufficiently to compensate for lower wages in other countries.

Take a company with 500 employees. In the US the employee makes $20/hr. In a foreign country they make $10/hr. (I'm being conservative here and overly generous there. It's probably more along the line of $25/hr here and $3/hr or $4/hr. there.) So, for the sake of argument, let's say a savings of $10/hr for 500 employees is $5,000/hr. and the average person works approximately 2000 hrs a year which results in $5,000hr X 2000hrs. = $10,000,000. That's ten million.

Now, let's suppose the owner is paying 30% income tax now and we raise it to 40%. They pay an extra 100,000 on each million they bring/use here but they've made an additional 10 million. The tax can never be lowered sufficiently to persuade them to bring their business here because the tax would have to be lowered enough to cover the 10 million they make overseas which is impossible so tax plays a minor role, for them.

"For them". Those are the key words. $100,000 taken from one million (10%) hurts a lot less than $2,000 takes from $20,000 (10%).

To sum up it's not the taxes that cause companies to move overseas. It's the wages.

So, one may ask, "Why would the business owner complain about taxes if taxes played a minor role?"

The answer is "philosophy" or beliefs or simple greed. They can well afford to pay more in taxes but don't believe it's right for them to pay more than other people. There belief is, "Why should we pay more than the poor person?"

That's all it is, Dixie. It's not complicated. It's not a mystery.

That said, the only way we can unite the world is by making a level playing field. We can continue to send aid to poor countries or we can go there and build factories and provide them jobs and slowly but surely their standard of living will increase. The "down" side, if one wishes to see it as being a "down", is that as their wealth increases ours will decrease. It is a natural consequence.

Ones wealth is simply a comparison between others and themselves. In other words wealth is not a specific number. The person living in a third world country making $10,000/yr is wealthy as he/she can go to the dentist and pay $1.00 or buy a weeks worth of groceries for $5.00 or visit a doctor or buy a product made there for pennies. They could even afford part-time domestic help!

Why is the Chinese citizen paid $5.00/hr to assemble microwave ovens and US citizens are paid $25.00 to do the same job? Obviously, the microwave company is going to hire Chinese people to assemble them. No amount of tax breaks are going to convince the microwave business owner to pay US citizens $25.00/hr. It ain't going to happen.

So, what's the result? The wages of the people with "regular" jobs either stagnate or decrease while those with businesses dramatically increase as we have seen happening. (The rich get richer and the poor get poorer.) While the "regular" worker is not really poorer compared to the rest of the world as the products they buy are made by people making a lot less money (rather than, say, 20 years ago buying a TV set made here by someone earning $20.00/hr they are able to buy a TV set made by someone earning $4.00/hr).

However, while the TV set is cheaper it would be a lot cheaper if the person assembling it was paid directly but the business owner/middleman is pocketing the difference. A huge difference. The person pocketing the huge difference is the person with whom the "regular" worker has to compare himself, not with the Chinese person making the TV.

So, what does that mean? It means whenever the regular worker has to purchase a product or service made by someone here they realize they're poorer than they thought because the wealthy are competing for the same product/service. If the plumber can go to the home of a wealthy individual and charge $100/hr he's going to charge the "regular" worker $100/hr, as well. The same principal applies to doctors and lawyers and dentists and any other profession in demand.

The bottom line is a relatively small but appreciable segment of society is experiencing rapid wealth increase while the rest of society is headed in the direction of the Chinese worker because the rest are doing the same job as the Chinese worker.

History has shown us that when a great disparity becomes apparent between groups of citizens it never ends well. I'm sure Marie Antoinette felt she didn't have any obligation to share her cake. :)

So, where does that leave us? As you can see the problem is much greater than simply lowering taxes.

Do you have an alternative solution?
 
Well, I'm not sure why companies invest in foreign countries, we're talking about "the rich" investing in foreign countries. I imagine pretty much any entity invests for the same general reason, there is some benefit to be gained. Low wages might very well be why a company might invest in a foreign country, but why would an independently wealthy individual living in the US? Well, because there is an advantage to them. Some countries have little or no income tax, others have dubious reporting methods and means to get around customary obstacles. Wealthy people can hide wealth all over the world, they can make money here and transfer money there, and this is never reported as US income because it isn't earned here. Now, if they ship in a pallet load of hundred dollar bills to fund their opulent lifestyle...fine, you can tax THAT as income... but there are trillions and trillions of dollars out there, and you'll never see the majority of it. From a purely business standpoint, financial moguls will tell you it is foolish to be investing in the declining US dollar, when you can be investing in the rising Chinese economy, or a host of other promising foreign opportunities.

Again, all of this wealth is there, we know it exists... the problem is getting it to come back here to this country and be spent, so our economy grows and prosperity abounds. Your idea is to drive this money away further by being completely stupid and oblivious to the world around you.

The money is not coming back and the wealthy are not going to invest here if there are other countries producing the same thing for lower cost (wages). It's a simple as that.

I think Obama made that clear. The rust belt is going to continue to rust, etc.

It's all about innovation now. New products. New ideas.
 
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