The Modern Hitlers Children...................revisited

First of all, inserting the term "progeny" does nothing to advance the discussion. It's just a term you are using because you don't want to differentiate between a fetus and a toddler. They are different and branding them both under the term "progeny" because you don't want to deal with those differences is a cop out. Second, I don't believe the prior poster said anything about killing on a whim.

Not really, it is always progeny. It's like saying you say it because you don't want to differentiate between an infant and a child. They are simply different stages of development for the progeny. I call "it" progeny because that is what it is.

And you "don't believe" because you either haven't paid attention to conversations about this in the past where he has participated or you are pretending that this post is in a vacuum and his past expressed opinions don't exist. I, however, remember the conversations I had with him previously.

Now, again, if you can pretend you have a bit of empathy and have an ability to put yourself in the "shoes" of another. If you believe it is a "child" that is being killed is it ever okay, other than to save the life of the mother, to kill that "person"?

I'm not saying I believe that, I am simply giving you the perspective of another so that you can better understand the perspective from which they view this "problem"...
 
Again, it does not say, "It is more blessed to force others to give." It speaks of your personal responsibility, not one to force others to be "holy"...

If you don't want republicans to force you to be "holy" by law, why should you be allowed to force me to be "holy" by your interpretation of a religion I don't follow?

But you only see what you want, right?

Oh, please. If someone has to force you to be kind or compassionate, then it wasn't in your heart to begin with. No one wants your dirty money to improve their lives. But goddamn it, you're going to pay taxes, just like everybody else. And the benefits that taxes return are for everybody...not just the rich...not just the connected...not just the powerful.

Holy? No you didn't. Holiness isn't even in the Republican playbook. They distanced themselves from "holy", a long long time ago. And please...don't attempt the impossible. You might get a hernia. No you didn't go there.
 
Oh, please. If someone has to force you to be kind or compassionate, then it wasn't in your heart to begin with. No one wants your dirty money to improve their lives. But goddamn it, you're going to pay taxes, just like everybody else. And the benefits that taxes return are for everybody...not just the rich...not just the connected...not just the powerful.

Oh please. If somebody has to force you to be moral... blah, blah, blah...

Holy? No you didn't. Holiness isn't even in the Republican playbook. They distanced themselves from "holy", a long long time ago. And please...don't attempt the impossible. You might get a hernia. No you didn't go there.
*sigh*

So, you almost sorta got the point, but were still so partisanly blind you couldn't quite get the whole of it.

The legislation is not the place to force me to follow your interpretation of my religion either. You have a personal responsibility to be responsible towards others due to your religious belief, you have zero responsibility for my soul or any authority to force me to follow your religion by legislation.

And you didn't answer most of my questions, IMO it is because you don't like what you saw when you looked at them honestly.

The tax code is not the place to enforce your religion on others any more than the bedroom is.
 
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Aborting a fetus is taking personal responsibility. Refusing to bring a child into the world knowing it will be neglected, knowing one can not or will not look after it properly is taking personal responsibility. Let those who believe otherwise pay for the child's medical and other necessities or mind their own damn business.

You keep repeating this mantra of yours, like it's truth in it's entirety.
How do you know that the child will be neglected, won't be looked after properly; because you seem to have the belief that it absolutely has to be one way or the other and that's where you fail.
 
Is it, however, progeny? And at what point is it not "okay" to just kill them on a whim? And if you do kill your progeny on a whim how is it "taking responsibility" as he claimed?

You deliberately ignore the premise.

This shows you have an incapacity for empathy, it is a simple exercise. Imagine it from a different point of view. Would it ever be okay to kill them if you believed it was a child? Don't be lazy, don't be simple. You know where this is going and you don't want to give "them" credibility.

The reality is if you believed, as often those who are against abortion do, that it is a child you are killing (especially at later stages of pregnancy) then there really is no reason good enough to do it other than to save a life.

It appears that Apple and some others would have no problem with a family who suddenly find themselves in a situation, where they could no longer care for the entire family; to go ahead and just "thin the herd", so to speak.
They surely wouldn't want that child or those children to be neglected or ignored.
 
Oh, please. If someone has to force you to be kind or compassionate, then it wasn't in your heart to begin with. No one wants your dirty money to improve their lives. But goddamn it, you're going to pay taxes, just like everybody else. And the benefits that taxes return are for everybody...not just the rich...not just the connected...not just the powerful.

Holy? No you didn't. Holiness isn't even in the Republican playbook. They distanced themselves from "holy", a long long time ago. And please...don't attempt the impossible. You might get a hernia. No you didn't go there.

I see that you're still upset over your family thinking that you were second best and then sending your brother to College.
It also seems that your weekly counseling sessions aren't doing much good.
 
Is it, however, progeny? And at what point is it not "okay" to just kill them on a whim? And if you do kill your progeny on a whim how is it "taking responsibility" as he claimed?

You deliberately ignore the premise.

This shows you have an incapacity for empathy, it is a simple exercise. Imagine it from a different point of view. Would it ever be okay to kill them if you believed it was a child? Don't be lazy, don't be simple. You know where this is going and you don't want to give "them" credibility.

The reality is if you believed, as often those who are against abortion do, that it is a child you are killing (especially at later stages of pregnancy) then there really is no reason good enough to do it other than to save a life.

The current limit in the UK is 24 weeks, there was an attempt to change the limit to 20 weeks in 2008.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/may/21/health.stemcells
 
The current limit in the UK is 24 weeks, there was an attempt to change the limit to 20 weeks in 2008.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/may/21/health.stemcells

That's a valid turning point, basic cognition begins right around that period. I can understand why they chose that cutoff point. Apple, however, has expressed an opinion that right up until the moment they take their first breath of air it is something we can kill without regard for the life it represents.
 
That's a valid turning point, basic cognition begins right around that period. I can understand why they chose that cutoff point. Apple, however, has expressed an opinion that right up until the moment they take their first breath of air it is something we can kill without regard for the life it represents.

I like Apple but if he said that then I just cannot agree with him. Aborting a foetus in the third trimester is just not justifiable unless the woman's life is in danger.
 
Aborting a fetus is taking personal responsibility. Refusing to bring a child into the world knowing it will be neglected, knowing one can not or will not look after it properly is taking personal responsibility. Let those who believe otherwise pay for the child's medical and other necessities or mind their own damn business.
No, not getting pregnant is taking personal responsibility. Accepting the consequences of risks and stepping up to take care of the child if a mistake is made is accepting personal responsibility.
 
Oh please. If somebody has to force you to be moral... blah, blah, blah...


*sigh*

So, you almost sorta got the point, but were still so partisanly blind you couldn't quite get the whole of it.

The legislation is not the place to force me to follow your interpretation of my religion either. You have a personal responsibility to be responsible towards others due to your religious belief, you have zero responsibility for my soul or any authority to force me to follow your religion by legislation.

And you didn't answer most of my questions, IMO it is because you don't like what you saw when you looked at them honestly.

The tax code is not the place to enforce your religion on others any more than the bedroom is.



Apples and oranges. And this, nor any other place is the place for you to enforce your interpretation of what constitutes life, a fetus, a child, the rights of the mother, the rights of interested parties into the affairs of the mother, or the validity of Roe V. Wade. It's all a moot point, and your opinion, that you've confused with truth.
 
The very thing free citizens have been fighting against worldwide for centuries....government interference with religious beliefs, partents rights and family........

Michelle Obama: Gov’t Should Shape Kids

First Lady Michelle Obama said yesterday that the government can affect who kids “will be forever” if it can shape their "habits and preferences" during the large part of the day they are at school.

Read more: http://nation.foxnews.com/michelle-...id=NL_FiredUpFoxNation_20111020#ixzz1bLWdOigi

Her efforts to educate kids on the benefits of good eating habits and exercise habits should be applauded by everyone. THAT is what education is for. The betterment of the children.

We wonder why health care costs have escalated so much... the number one reason is that as a country we continue to exercise less and too many trend closer to the 'live to eat' mentality rather than the 'eat to live' mentality. We absolutely should be teaching healthy eating to kids in health/science class. We absolutely should be encouraging exercise via PE/recess.
 
Uh, fetuses (or feti) are not "children", and therefore, aborting "feti" is not "killing children, before birth". Just because folks are able to have sex and conceive doesn't mean they are or will be "parents". Many are not equipped , mentally or physically, to be up to the task.

Wrong. A 'fetus' is a reference to a STAGE of the child's development.
 
This is incredibly twisted.

Imagine for a moment that you aren't a person that believes that until they take a breath they aren't really human progeny and understand that progeny is still progeny even if it is in an earlier stage than birth. Now, can you give any reason why it would be okay to kill your progeny and how it would be "taking responsibility" towards them?

It's generally accepted people wish for their progeny to do better or, at least, the same as themselves. It's also generally accepted one does not want to see their progeny needlessly suffer. I wonder how many people would abort if they knew, for a certainty, their progeny would die in their teen years from leukemia. Or if they knew, for a certainty, their progeny would be born with massive defects requiring painful operations and they would never leave a hospital setting.

Of course, one has no way of knowing the future, for a certainty, but they can make an "educated" guess. One who is intent on furthering their career, one who has dreams of accomplishing something extraordinary may conclude they would not be a good parent as they would either neglect their progeny or fulfill their obligation with bitterness. They know either scenario would be detrimental to their progeny so why would they subject their progeny to such conditions?

The more one cares about their progeny the more they will ensure they bring them into the most favorable environment possible. Even animals which fight to their death to protect their progeny will kill or abandon them to the elements shortly after birth if one is severely defective. I would conclude they realize the defective progeny would not be able to look after itself; obtain food, defend itself, etc. It's life would be constant suffering.

Say my progeny was in the toddler stage of development, would it be "taking responsibility" if I decided that I needed to perform an extremely late "abortion" on them?

The problem is society requires some cut-off point otherwise the potential for abuse would flourish. On the other hand I could ask is it morally acceptable to prolong a child's life after it's been diagnosed with Tay-Sachs disease at, say, six months of age.

(Excerpt) Tay-sachs: Children with the disease become deaf, blind, and lose the ability to swallow. Their muscle start to atrophy and paralysis sets in. Additional neurological symptoms experienced by children with Tay-Sachs disease include seizures, dementia, and an increased startle response to noise.....

The most common form of the disease presents symptoms when a child is only three to six months old. The disease progresses from there, rapidly proceeding to death by the time the person reaches the age of four or five years. When the infant is born they seem healthy and develop in a regular fashion for the first few months of their life....

Medical science currently has not created a cure for Tay-Sachs disease, or an effective form of treatment. (End)
http://www.disabled-world.com/disability/types/tay-sachs.php

Which is morally preferable; euthanize such children at the time of diagnosis or insist they live through
* Seizures
* Listlessness
* Increasing irritability
* Decreased eye contact
* Increased startle reaction
* Delayed mental and social skills
* Slow body growth with increasing head size
* The infant stops smiling, crawling or rolling over and loses the ability to grasp or reach out

As the disease continues to progress, the symptoms the child experiences become more dominant. The child then begins experiencing symptoms that include:
* Deafness
* Blindness
* Feeding difficulties
* Loss of motor skills
* Abnormal body tone
* Loss of intellectual skills

Then there's cases like (Excerpt) Sue Rodriguez, a 42-year-old woman suffering from the debilitating, terminal illness, amyotrophic lateral sclerosis, wishes to have a qualified physician assist her in terminating her life at the time of her choosing. Section 241(b) of the Criminal Code,(1) however, makes it a criminal offence to assist a person to commit suicide. Ms. Rodriguez applied to the Supreme Court of British Columbia for an order declaring s. 241(b) invalid under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms (the "Charter"). The B.C. court dismissed her application and a majority of the British Columbia Court of Appeal affirmed the trial judge’s decision. Ms. Rodriguez then appealed to the Supreme Court of Canada, where she argued that s. 241(b) violates sections 7, 12, and 15 of the Charter.

In a five to four decision, the Supreme Court of Canada dismissed the appeal and found s. 241(b) to be constitutional. (End)
http://dsp-psd.pwgsc.gc.ca/Collection-R/LoPBdP/BP/bp349-e.htm

(Excerpt) As many as 20,000-30,000 people in the United States have ALS, and an estimated 5,000 people in the United States are diagnosed with the disease each year.

The earliest symptoms may include twitching, cramping, or stiffness of muscles; muscle weakness affecting an arm or a leg; slurred and nasal speech; or difficulty chewing or swallowing.....Although the sequence of emerging symptoms and the rate of disease progression vary from person to person, eventually patients will not be able to stand or walk, get in or out of bed on their own, or use their hands and arms. Difficulty swallowing and chewing impair the patient's ability to eat normally and increase the risk of choking..... In later stages of the disease, patients have difficulty breathing as the muscles of the respiratory system weaken. Patients eventually lose the ability to breathe on their own and must depend on ventilatory support for survival. (End)
http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/amyotrophiclateralsclerosis/detail_ALS.htm

Are we morally correct to deny the request of euthanasia from a victim of this disease and insist they suffer through that which we know will happen?

Talking about twisted what belief system could possibly justify insisting people endure such suffering only to die within a few years?
 
Wrong. A 'fetus' is a reference to a STAGE of the child's development.


And? A fetus is not yet a child. It is under construction. We bestow rights upon children not fetuses. If not, abortion would be illegal, now wouldn't it?
Roe V. Wade, is still the law of the land. Much to your chagrin.
 
Apples and oranges. And this, nor any other place is the place for you to enforce your interpretation of what constitutes life, a fetus, a child, the rights of the mother, the rights of interested parties into the affairs of the mother, or the validity of Roe V. Wade. It's all a moot point, and your opinion, that you've confused with truth.

I am not "forcing" anything. I am simply asking questions that will allow persons with empathy to understand the viewpoint of another. My opinion on abortion is different than everybody's here and has always been different. I've only known one other person with the same idea, he was one of the smartest posters I've known and I miss IHateGovernment....

Basically, without knowing my opinion at all you decide that I am trying to "force" you to believe something when I simply ask questions that may expand your horizon and allow you to understand a different human being.

And when comparing fruit it is good to use apples and oranges. You try to save my soul with "this" legislation, the republicans try to save my soul with "that" legislation both of you are doing something that is wrong. You can't save my soul, you cannot force me into morality.
 
I am not "forcing" anything. I am simply asking questions that will allow persons with empathy to understand the viewpoint of another. My opinion on abortion is different than everybody's here and has always been different. I've only known one other person with the same idea, he was one of the smartest posters I've known and I miss IHateGovernment....

Basically, without knowing my opinion at all you decide that I am trying to "force" you to believe something when I simply ask questions that may expand your horizon and allow you to understand a different human being.

And when comparing fruit it is good to use apples and oranges. You try to save my soul with "this" legislation, the republicans try to save my soul with "that" legislation both of you are doing something that is wrong. You can't save my soul, you cannot force me into morality.

Certainly not, if none is there.
 
It's generally accepted people wish for their progeny to do better or, at least, the same as themselves. It's also generally accepted one does not want to see their progeny needlessly suffer. ...
Yet it is not an accepted practice to kill one's toddler if they develop a disease, yet you justify killing it earlier if there is a chance that it might develop the disease. In fact you justify killing it if its life makes yours less convenient.
 
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