The Dumbing of America

The Dude said:
He can be whatever he wants
I'm just arguing liberal arts pays less than engineering and business.
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Obviously. But quality of life has to enter in, and not everyone wants to work a technical field. I have friends whoa re computer programmers. They say it is like taking a tough math test for 11 or 12 hours a day. I would not enjoy that.


Now put me on a cold wet roof repairing a refrigeration rack, or in an electrical switch gear, or building something with power tools....pure heaven.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
The best summation I've ever read about the importance of a liberal arts education was writen by Robert A. Heinlein. Hardly a liberal.

"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."
— Robert Heinlein
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I'm screwed.....my bank account never balances......nor have I died, gallantly or otherwise.....to further mess up your equation my undergrad BA was a double major (history and sociology.....I was one class short of a third major in philosophy)......back in those days they didn't have those new-fangled pre-law majors......
 
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Mott the Hoople said:
Hey I don't disagree with the data and if you're goal in life is to make money then you had either be real motivated if you're going to make a living in a liberal arts field or you had better have other priorities in life. That doesn't change the value or importance of the liberal arts.
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Which goes right along with my very first post on this thread...the article's last two paragraphs are bunk. If the goal is to succeed, and to succeed at the low end is to make a comfortable living then focusing on the liberal arts isn't the way to go. My son loves history. He reads everything he can to enhance his knowledge of it. That is great and it would be nice if he could make a living with such knowledge....but it ain't likely. So I encourage his love of history and push math and science (he's good at those as well) because I know far too many people with history and music degrees working as hotel clerks or in casinos and such. Their "...liberal arts education ... may be more crucial than ever..." isn't reality. I don't often agree with Topper but his data bears that out.
 
The Dude said:
Most people go to college for a career that pays.
A liberal arts degree is way better than no degree.
But the facts are clear
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OH I agree on the money scale but you keep missing my point. Not everyone is motivated completely by money and there are good careers in these fields if, like any other field, you bust you ass and learn skills.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
So why didn't you study engineering or biology or chemistry. Those are considered the three hardest majors you know?
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I started as a PE major, when I found out coaches made less than me bartending on weekends I switched to accounting.
My uncle was a CPA, I prob didn't know what an engineer was
 
The Dude said:
He can be whatever he wants
I'm just arguing liberal arts pays less than engineering and business.
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Here's an example of why a strong liberal arts education is important. When I went to college most of my male friends went into business majors. A handful, like myself, went into STEM fields. Of those who went into business about half went into accounting and most of them went on to graduate with accounting degrees and became accountants. Not one...and I mean not one of those guys is still a practicing accountant. They all burned out and went into other fields. Had they not had a liberal arts background in their education they probably would not have been able to make that change in mid life.
 
PostmodernProphet said:
I'm screwed.....my bank account never balances......nor have I died, gallantly or otherwise.....to further mess up your equation my undergrad BA was a double major (history and sociology.....I was one class short of a third major in philosophy)......back in those days they didn't have those new-fangled pre-law majors......
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Sucks to be an insect, huh? ;)
 
Mott the Hoople said:
OH I agree on the money scale but you keep missing my point. Not everyone is motivated completely by money and there are good careers in these fields if, like any other field, you bust you ass and learn skills.
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You have no point, I'm not saying they are
That's like me sayin your saying business school grads have no quality of life. Strawman on Ohio slow reject
 
leaningright said:
Which goes right along with my very first post on this thread...the article's last two paragraphs are bunk. If the goal is to succeed, and to succeed at the low end is to make a comfortable living then focusing on the liberal arts isn't the way to go. My son loves history. He reads everything he can to enhance his knowledge of it. That is great and it would be nice if he could make a living with such knowledge....but it ain't likely. So I encourage his love of history and push math and science (he's good at those as well) because I know far too many people with history and music degrees working as hotel clerks or in casinos and such. Their "...liberal arts education ... may be more crucial than ever..." isn't reality. I don't often agree with Topper but his data bears that out.
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I'm not arguing with Toppers data either. Hell I was a STEM major. I loved history passionately in college (though not as much as I do the life sciences) and it didn't take a rocket surgeon to figure out that this is a good way to starve to death. However, I live in a diverse community where I know quite a few people who work in these liberal art fields and many of them do make a good standard of living. They also have something else in common. They went to good schools and studied liberal art programs that were extremely rigorous and demanding and they were motivated to work their asses off the be successful. I would not encourage a kid from a working class family to go to the local JUCO and study a liberal arts major but if they had real talent and were motivated why not encourage them to go to the schools with the best programs where they can learn those skills?

It's not like we don't have enough business criminals already. ;)
 
In most countries people get educated to be more human and live better lives. Only extremist American weirdoes believe the only point of education is to get lots of money to impress the Joneses with yet more inferior capitalist junk. Jesus wept!
 
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