Solar panels not as green as you think

[BartenderElite]

buying solar panels on any scale from China is insane new green deal stuff
Dems are stoopid

The environmentalists and alt energy proponents will be looked upon by future historians as the visionaries, and those who tried to head of what is likely to happen. They'll be lauded, and those who ridiculed them will be looked upon like we look at those who thought slavery was more of a peculiar institution than something to be opposed.

 

[zappasguitar]

I thought the topic was solar panels?

Now all of a sudden you want to talk about electric cars and grounding planes.

shut up fag

Awwwwwww...

The sad little GOP shill got caught changing the subject and now he doesn't want to play anymore.

And once again, he just can't bring himself to answer another poster's question.

 

[Stringfellow Hawk]

Awwwwwww...

The sad little GOP shill got caught changing the subject and now he doesn't want to play anymore.

And once again, he just can't bring himself to answer another poster's question.

you are just an ass, that's all, you were at other boards too

 

[Noking]

you are just an ass, that's all, you were at other boards too

So what's an ass????????????????

 

[zappasguitar]

So what's an ass????????????????

Anyone who catches MAGA LYING or trying to avoid answering a question immediately becomes "an ass".

 

[Noking]

Anyone who catches MAGA LYING or trying to avoid answering a question immediately becomes "an ass".

I kinda figured that.

 

[Lionfish]

ROFLMAO.
So let's all just pretend that we know nothing about electronics like you do. We do have performance stats for leds, solar voltaics and transistors in general. The fact that you are an idiot doesn't make the rest of us idiots.

Your repeating the idiotic all or nothing fallacy, only confirms you are an idiot. Reducing emissions doesn't mean we have to stop them tomorrow. That is the only way you can try to win the argument because the actual facts defeat your idiocy the minute you open your mouth.

Lithium batteries are like solar cells. They require energy and materials when produced but then they have a lifespan where they have no emissions. Currently technology is being developed to recycle everything in the lithium batteries. They don't just get thrown away. It's the interesting thing about atoms. They don't disappear. It's just what is the cost needed to separate them from other molecules.

Using the word idiot as many times in a post as you did makes you sound like one.

Fossil fuel alternatives are the way we will be going in the near future as a suplimental source. Wind, solar, and battery power works are great but they do not work that well when 100,000 people are trying to evacuate Florida or a CA wildfire. They are not efficient in cold weather. They are not desirable when the power grid which is mostly powered by fossil fuels, is not nearly capable of meeting current demands let alone an environment that is mandated to rely solely on solar and wind to recharge those batteries or run our electric motors. Even if the EV manufacturers do something I have wondered about for years, adding solar panels to the top, hood, and trunk along with using the wind generated by a moving vehicle to recharge their batteries while it is moving, they still have a lot of problems to overcome.

Your comment about lithium batteries being expensive is correct and the fire danger they offer makes me think the batteries of the future will use some other substance to generate their own power.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

The environmentalists and alt energy proponents will be looked upon by future historians as the visionaries, and those who tried to head of what is likely to happen. They'll be lauded, and those who ridiculed them will be looked upon like we look at those who thought slavery was more of a peculiar institution than something to be opposed.

No, they'll be looked on as wrong, just like all the people before them that advocated for dead end technologies. Battery cars are nothing new. They've never worked well enough to capture the market.

Yea, back around 1910, battery cars were being touted as the future of automobiles... Like that happened...

Wind and solar are the same way. Sometimes it just takes the really stupid and rich a very long time to figure out they fucked up.

 

[Poor Richard Saunders]

Wrong!

Here's a spec sheet for some random solar panels. I chose it because it has the right specs on it.

http://decolineinc.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Solar-panel-specs-21.jpg

The top panel is rated for 120 to 140 watts. The efficiency is 13.7 to 16.6%. Output is therefore 16.44 to 23.24 watts. That is how solar panels are rated. I've only been doing this shit professionally for like 40+ years in one capacity or another. I know how to read the spec sheets. The best solar panels on the market like the LG ones have an efficiency of about 20 to 22% for residential installations.

Under "perfect" conditions, the sun is aligned exactly 90 degrees to the panel, a rarity unless you have 2 axis solar tracking, which NO residential array uses. Therefore, the efficiency of residential panels is even lower than the full capacity of the panel because it is either never, or next to never aligned perfectly with the sun.

You obviously have never run a large generator or operated on a grid. I have. Most non-commercial solar arrays are not monitored. Many residential ones shutdown automatically as a protection feature if the array is producing differential power from portions of it, like if a shadow from a cloud or tree covers part of the array. It takes much more than a "simple switch" to control such an array. Voltage sensing is necessary as it power sensing for each group of panels. On a typical residential array, 4 to 8 panels in series make up a group depending on the voltage desired, and those are then grouped in parallel for the entire array.

As for large generators, you can change the excitation of the armature to vary the power output. They are monitored and much easier to operate and control than a mass of solar panels any day of the week.

Wow. I sure hope you don't give anyone electrical advice.
The cells efficiency is how much of the solar energy it receives is turned into electricity.
The panel rating is how much it can produce in perfect conditions. A panel rated for maximum 140 watts can produce 140 watts but only when it is receiving the roughly maximum 1000 watts of sunlight.

But let's look at your 23.24 watts claim. That means that a 140 watt panel can only produce 24wh which would mean that in 10 hours of sunlight it would only produce 120whs of electricity. The average home in the US uses 28.9kwh per day. that would mean the average home would need 240 140watt solar panels to produce enough energy for their daily use. We know that isn't true. The average number of panels a home needs is roughly 20 larger panels . Let's do the math. 140whs per panel times 10 hours of sunlight times 20 panels gives us 28kwhs. So your claim that a 140w panel only produces 23.24 watts is utter nonsense. Of course the actual calculation is much more complex in calculating the amount of production needed to meet that 28kwhs.

But then when I pull out my copy of the NEC, I find that 690.8 gives the way to calculate the maximum current and source currents support the fact that the panels can produce 140 watts if rated at 140 watts since the current is calculated using the maximum current is calculated using the short circuit current. Nothing in the code says the output must be adjusted by the efficiency. The code says the cable size needs to be based on the calculated maximum current. There would be no reason for the NEC to require the cable size should be based on 22% of the amperage that could ever be produced.

Further the NEC code goes on to say the the disconnect must be able to be switched on and off with a breaker or manually operated switch. This simple disconnect is precisely what I said exists and could easily be turned on or off as a connection to the grid.

But I can also talk from personal experience. Most panels on residential homes are 320 watts or more such as this one of which I have 24 on my house. https://silfabsolar.com/sla-m-320/. The rated max is 320. The normal rating is 240. On September 29, the panel production varied from .963kwh to 1.24kwh per panel. The lower panels are blocked by trees in the late afternoon so their production is less. The sun was basically up for 12 hours that day. At a roughly 20% efficiency the max any panel could have produced using your method is .768kwh and that is assuming they were getting direct sunlight the entire 12 hours. In reality, the majority of the production is from 9-5 with the panels averaging over 200wh at noon. I have a single switch that can take my system off grid. There is also a built in safety that automatically takes my system off grid if the grid goes down.

What do you think would shut down portions of the array? It would be the inverter which is likely to be a smart device. That means it can sense changes and respond quickly to those changes. Changes in voltage and current can be detected and compensated for. It means the entire system panel shut down because one portion has stopped producing. You can find a ton of videos online of people testing solar panels with parts of the panel blocked to see how it affects production. None of the videos show production for the panel to stop when a portion is completely blocked.

 

[Poor Richard Saunders]

Truly arrogant twat!

Talking to yourself again, you wanker?

 

[Poor Richard Saunders]

Thanks Joke Biden for fucking up America's energy independence!

Rather than reassessing your claims, you decide to ignore the fact that the price of fossil fuels has always fluctuated?

 

[Poor Richard Saunders]

If solar panels are so wonderful then produce them in the US, you know that the economics of production are why they are all produced in China using coal and slave labour, arrogant twat!! This is one of the reasons why I detest the Regressive Left so much, they are full-on hypocrites.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-57124636

Thanks for changing the subject since you can't correct my math.

The fact remains that the ROI for solar is about 10 years. Even if the costs of solar panels doubled, the ROI would still be such that they would be cost effective over a 20 year life cycle.

 

[Geeko Sportivo]

Solar panels don't cause oil slicks that kill fish, wildlife, plants, and create crisis like the one in California today.

Oil is nasty, and is making us all sick and ruining our planet and space.

You would have to be totally Trumptarded to not understand or be concerned about this.

 

[Poor Richard Saunders]

Using the word idiot as many times in a post as you did makes you sound like one.

Fossil fuel alternatives are the way we will be going in the near future as a suplimental source. Wind, solar, and battery power works are great but they do not work that well when 100,000 people are trying to evacuate Florida or a CA wildfire. They are not efficient in cold weather. They are not desirable when the power grid which is mostly powered by fossil fuels, is not nearly capable of meeting current demands let alone an environment that is mandated to rely solely on solar and wind to recharge those batteries or run our electric motors. Even if the EV manufacturers do something I have wondered about for years, adding solar panels to the top, hood, and trunk along with using the wind generated by a moving vehicle to recharge their batteries while it is moving, they still have a lot of problems to overcome.

Your comment about lithium batteries being expensive is correct and the fire danger they offer makes me think the batteries of the future will use some other substance to generate their own power.

You are too funny as you propose a perpetual motion machine. Idiot is a word that has often been applied to those making such suggestions or wondering why it hasn't been built yet.

Did you not know that gasoline can burn?

 

[Into the Night]

Using the word idiot as many times in a post as you did makes you sound like one.

Fossil fuel alternatives are the way we will be going in the near future as a suplimental source. Wind, solar, and battery power works are great but they do not work that well when 100,000 people are trying to evacuate Florida or a CA wildfire. They are not efficient in cold weather. They are not desirable when the power grid which is mostly powered by fossil fuels, is not nearly capable of meeting current demands let alone an environment that is mandated to rely solely on solar and wind to recharge those batteries or run our electric motors. Even if the EV manufacturers do something I have wondered about for years, adding solar panels to the top, hood, and trunk along with using the wind generated by a moving vehicle to recharge their batteries while it is moving, they still have a lot of problems to overcome.

Your comment about lithium batteries being expensive is correct and the fire danger they offer makes me think the batteries of the future will use some other substance to generate their own power.

Fossils are not used as fuel. Fossils don't burn. They will not be used as a source of energy of any type.

Coal is cheap. It's cheap because it's plentiful.
Oil is cheap. It's cheap because it's plentiful (except for the recent artificial limits place on oil production by government).
Methane is cheap. It's cheap because it's plentiful.

All of these produce power that is VERY cheap per watt produced.

Wind and solar power are piddle power. They are the most expensive and 2nd most expensive methods or producing electricity, watt for watt.

Batteries are not an energy source. They more like tanks. They have to be charged.

Electric cars have the advantage of individual traction motors that are computer controlled, producing excellent traction in rain and snow. The have the big disadvantage in that they take a long to refuel (recharge) from a fully discharged battery to a fully charged one (ignoring residual charges). It takes only a few minutes to refuel a gasoline or diesel vehicle.

This will not change. The power required to shove into an electric car's battery is still the same, regardless of internal battery resistance. If you shoved that much current into an electric car to charge it in the same amount of time to refuel a gasoline car, it would require a conductor and a connector so large you couldn't lift it.

Energy markets should be unfettered. Government manipulation of any market is fascism. Nothing in the Constitution ever gave them this power or authority. Let people decide for themselves what form of energy they want to buy.

 

[Into the Night]

Nothing is a bust or worthless. Most of what we'll be using hasn't been thought of yet.

Computers used to take up 2 rooms of a building. People laughed at the idea that they could ever be used in homes, or carried around in purses and pockets.

Dude. Tidal energy requires the installation of generators exposed to salt air and turbines exposed to seawater. They also require SOLID anchor points. The maintenance on these things is hell. The cost is very high to construct or even maintain such a facility.

 

[Into the Night]

There are few dispatchable forms of electricity, natural gas, hydro, coal and nuclear, to some extent, are whilst wind and solar not. Stop with your constant bullshit ffs! T.A. knows far more about energy matters than you, if you weren't so arrogant and ignorant you'd realise that and fuck off!

That he does. He has just indicated so. He is describing the power plants and how grid synchronization work quite accurately. He has also correctly pointed out the inefficiencies of solar panels and why.

 

[Into the Night]

Still on w/ Moore's law, eh?

There were definitely people who also said computers could never be made for personal use, as well.

Still trying to apply Moore's law to renewables. What a twit.

 

[Into the Night]

The environmentalists and alt energy proponents will be looked upon by future historians as the visionaries, and those who tried to head of what is likely to happen. They'll be lauded, and those who ridiculed them will be looked upon like we look at those who thought slavery was more of a peculiar institution than something to be opposed.

Fascism and slavery are both socialism, dude. They are both theft of wealth.
You are not visionaries. You are idiots that can't learn from history.

 

[Into the Night]

No, they'll be looked on as wrong, just like all the people before them that advocated for dead end technologies. Battery cars are nothing new. They've never worked well enough to capture the market.

Yea, back around 1910, battery cars were being touted as the future of automobiles... Like that happened...

Wind and solar are the same way. Sometimes it just takes the really stupid and rich a very long time to figure out they fucked up.

Tesla has managed to capture some significant market. Electric golf carts are commonplace as well as electric forklifts.
The problem is charging the battery. This takes time. A full charge gives about the same range as a gasoline car tankful, but it takes hours and hours to refuel the electric car, while it takes just a few minutes for the gasoline car.

This, of course, makes the electric car impractical for long haul use. They are commuter cars at best.

Then, of course, is the question for where all that additional electrical energy to recharge lots of electric cars is going to come from. As you know, wind and solar won't cut it, and you also have to get power TO the charging station, meaning the electrical grid.

I consider the electric car a coal fired car, particularly in the midwest, China, and anywhere else coal fired power plants are used.