Solar panels not as green as you think

[Poor Richard Saunders]

If solar panels were free, solar would still end up more expensive than abandoning it for fossil fuels or nuclear.

Let's see your numbers to support this claim. I mean real numbers, not some idiotic opinion piece.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

It's interesting how my energy usage is greater during the day than at night. It's also interesting how the energy usage for the area is the same. The other interesting thing is how wind tends to be stronger at night.

Your usage is irrelevant in the big picture. It's big commercial and industrial users that pull down serious power. Actually, most places, wind is stronger during the day due to solar heating.

In any case, the problem with PV solar is this: It only produces when the sun is up. Production is variable across the day with low outputs early in the morning and in late afternoon. You need two axis tracking to be most efficient. Fixed panels on rooftops are much less efficient.
Then there's the efficiency of the panels themselves. Right now the best ones are around 20 to 25% efficient in converting sunlight to electricity. All this means that to get one kilowatt day of power out of a solar array you need 5 KW of installed capacity and about 3 kw of storage capacity.
This is horribly inefficient. You have five times the output capacity in panels installed and need a storage capacity of about 60%. Topping this off is that sometimes the panels are producing so much electricity you have to find a way to dump the excess, other times they can't meet load demand.
A grossly expensive "smart" grid won't fix that.

Solar is stupid, and wind is only slightly less stupid.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Let's see your numbers to support this claim. I mean real numbers, not some idiotic opinion piece.

Very conservatively, the total cost of the solar power with battery storage will be an average of $56.63 per MWH, assuming solar 15 hours a day and batteries 9 hours. With natural gas at $2.00/MMBTU, that cost is about 92% higher than the cost of electricity from our planned combined cycle plant.

https://www.powersouth.com/is-solar-cheaper-than-natural-gas/

 

[Poor Richard Saunders]

Your usage is irrelevant in the big picture. It's big commercial and industrial users that pull down serious power. Actually, most places, wind is stronger during the day due to solar heating.

Commercial and Industrial electricity use is highest during the day. How can you not know that?

On most days, winds change substantially between the surface
and the lowest few thousand feet above ground level (AGL). These
changes are part of the daily cycle driven by the sun. The atmosphere
behaves like a fluid. The layer of fluid in contact with an underlying
surface is called the boundary layer. The atmospheric boundary layer
moves through a daily cycle based on heat from the sun.
This cycle of daytime heating and nighttime cooling explains why,
under most circumstances, higher winds are confined above the surface
at night.

https://www.weather.gov/media/publications/front/14feb-front.pdf

In any case, the problem with PV solar is this: It only produces when the sun is up. Production is variable across the day with low outputs early in the morning and in late afternoon. You need two axis tracking to be most efficient. Fixed panels on rooftops are much less efficient.
Then there's the efficiency of the panels themselves. Right now the best ones are around 20 to 25% efficient in converting sunlight to electricity. All this means that to get one kilowatt day of power out of a solar array you need 5 KW of installed capacity and about 3 kw of storage capacity.
This is horribly inefficient. You have five times the output capacity in panels installed and need a storage capacity of about 60%. Topping this off is that sometimes the panels are producing so much electricity you have to find a way to dump the excess, other times they can't meet load demand.
A grossly expensive "smart" grid won't fix that.

You don't seem to understand how efficiency and panel ratings work. Panels are rated based on what they produce not based on the total energy they receive from sunlight. A panel rated to produce 250W will produce 250W under perfect conditions. Yes, a lot of the time isn't perfect conditions but the panel will produce 80% or more of it's rated output for 6-8 hours a day for a fixed panel on a sunny day. That production is during the time that air conditioners require the most electricity. I am curious what you think a solar panel does if it isn't hooked up to anything. All it takes is a simple switch to shut off solar production to the grid. Switches are easy to control with a smart device. Turbines (wind, coal or nat gas) are impossible to shut down quickly and will burn up if you don't dump the electricity.

Solar is stupid, and wind is only slightly less stupid.

I guess when you get so many basic things wrong, you might think that.

 

[Poor Richard Saunders]

https://www.powersouth.com/is-solar-cheaper-than-natural-gas/

The cost of energy under our solar contract is very attractive at a generation cost of about $22.00 per MWH.

The cost of this solar-generated electricity at $22.00 per MWH is cheaper than the cost of electricity from our natural gas combined cycle plant at $29.53 per MWH.

Very conservatively, the total cost of the solar power with battery storage will be an average of $56.63 per MWH, assuming solar 15 hours a day and batteries 9 hours. With natural gas at $2.00/MMBTU, that cost is about 92% higher than the cost of electricity from our planned combined cycle plant.

And the current price for natural gas is $4.33/MMBTU. The funny thing about the price of the sun. It doesn't ever go up.
https://www.demac.com/reference-materials/oil-gas-prices/henry-hub-series/

That is why most energy companies are not using natural gas solely for their generation. Instead they are using combined cycle plants when other sources can't provide enough energy. This is with the ultimate goal of possibly eliminating the combined cycle plants as other sources of production and storage become available and cost effective.

 

[Stringfellow Hawk]

Current solar panels last 20-25 years and have an ROI of 10 years. A 25% tariff on imports would add less than 10% to the cost of a solar panel install. The majority of the cost is labor when it comes to installing solar panels. That would mean the ROI would go from 10 years to 11 years with a 20-25 your lifespan.

More like 15 minimum on ROI

 

[BartenderElite]

Tidal is a bust. It's inefficient and grossly expensive. Geothermal only works some places. Solar and wind are worthless. Nuclear backed by natural gas is the future if you want reasonably priced, reliable, electricity. Hydro is fine where you can get it, but that's a matter of geography.

Natural gas is the cleanest fossil fuel for this and would be used for peaking plants to handle variable loads. Nuclear handles base loading at around 80% of total load. Thus, you have a tiny footprint for the plants, a simple grid, and it is highly reliable. Solar and wind are too variable to be base load, and given the uncertainty of weather are unreliable.

Nothing is a bust or worthless. Most of what we'll be using hasn't been thought of yet.

Computers used to take up 2 rooms of a building. People laughed at the idea that they could ever be used in homes, or carried around in purses and pockets.

 

[Stringfellow Hawk]

Because you lied with no links to back up what you say, as usual poor richard

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Commercial and Industrial electricity use is highest during the day. How can you not know that?


https://www.weather.gov/media/publications/front/14feb-front.pdf

You don't seem to understand how efficiency and panel ratings work. Panels are rated based on what they produce not based on the total energy they receive from sunlight. A panel rated to produce 250W will produce 250W under perfect conditions. Yes, a lot of the time isn't perfect conditions but the panel will produce 80% or more of it's rated output for 6-8 hours a day for a fixed panel on a sunny day. That production is during the time that air conditioners require the most electricity. I am curious what you think a solar panel does if it isn't hooked up to anything. All it takes is a simple switch to shut off solar production to the grid. Switches are easy to control with a smart device. Turbines (wind, coal or nat gas) are impossible to shut down quickly and will burn up if you don't dump the electricity.

I guess when you get so many basic things wrong, you might think that.

Wrong!

Here's a spec sheet for some random solar panels. I chose it because it has the right specs on it.

http://decolineinc.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Solar-panel-specs-21.jpg

The top panel is rated for 120 to 140 watts. The efficiency is 13.7 to 16.6%. Output is therefore 16.44 to 23.24 watts. That is how solar panels are rated. I've only been doing this shit professionally for like 40+ years in one capacity or another. I know how to read the spec sheets. The best solar panels on the market like the LG ones have an efficiency of about 20 to 22% for residential installations.

Under "perfect" conditions, the sun is aligned exactly 90 degrees to the panel, a rarity unless you have 2 axis solar tracking, which NO residential array uses. Therefore, the efficiency of residential panels is even lower than the full capacity of the panel because it is either never, or next to never aligned perfectly with the sun.

You obviously have never run a large generator or operated on a grid. I have. Most non-commercial solar arrays are not monitored. Many residential ones shutdown automatically as a protection feature if the array is producing differential power from portions of it, like if a shadow from a cloud or tree covers part of the array. It takes much more than a "simple switch" to control such an array. Voltage sensing is necessary as it power sensing for each group of panels. On a typical residential array, 4 to 8 panels in series make up a group depending on the voltage desired, and those are then grouped in parallel for the entire array.

As for large generators, you can change the excitation of the armature to vary the power output. They are monitored and much easier to operate and control than a mass of solar panels any day of the week.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

More like 15 minimum on ROI

Most that you get one of those solar companies to install is closer to 20. They rape you on the price. Typically, for a home the materials cost $15,000 to $20,000. The installed cost from one of these companies is $45,000 to $60,000 and they get to keep the entirety of all government subsidies as part of that. So, you get fucked up the ass and save pennies on the dollar while they take you to the cleaners.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Nothing is a bust or worthless. Most of what we'll be using hasn't been thought of yet.

Computers used to take up 2 rooms of a building. People laughed at the idea that they could ever be used in homes, or carried around in purses and pockets.

Solar has been around for nearly 150 years. You can't get around the watt density of sunlight or the efficiency of materials because of the chemistry of the periodic table. Solar panels have a severe limit on how efficient they can be.

Same with batteries and battery cars. You can't change the laws of chemistry and physics.

 

[cancel2 2022]

Let's see your numbers to support this claim. I mean real numbers, not some idiotic opinion piece.

Truly arrogant twat!

 

[BartenderElite]

Solar has been around for nearly 150 years. You can't get around the watt density of sunlight or the efficiency of materials because of the chemistry of the periodic table. Solar panels have a severe limit on how efficient they can be.

Same with batteries and battery cars. You can't change the laws of chemistry and physics.

There will probably be something besides solar panels ultimately. Something people in that industry aren't even imagining, much less you or me.

That's just the way technology is.

 

[cancel2 2022]

Commercial and Industrial electricity use is highest during the day. How can you not know that?


https://www.weather.gov/media/publications/front/14feb-front.pdf

You don't seem to understand how efficiency and panel ratings work. Panels are rated based on what they produce not based on the total energy they receive from sunlight. A panel rated to produce 250W will produce 250W under perfect conditions. Yes, a lot of the time isn't perfect conditions but the panel will produce 80% or more of it's rated output for 6-8 hours a day for a fixed panel on a sunny day. That production is during the time that air conditioners require the most electricity. I am curious what you think a solar panel does if it isn't hooked up to anything. All it takes is a simple switch to shut off solar production to the grid. Switches are easy to control with a smart device. Turbines (wind, coal or nat gas) are impossible to shut down quickly and will burn up if you don't dump the electricity.

I guess when you get so many basic things wrong, you might think that.

There are few dispatchable forms of electricity, natural gas, hydro, coal and nuclear, to some extent, are whilst wind and solar not. Stop with your constant bullshit ffs! T.A. knows far more about energy matters than you, if you weren't so arrogant and ignorant you'd realise that and fuck off!

 

[T. A. Gardner]

There will probably be something besides solar panels ultimately. Something people in that industry aren't even imagining, much less you or me.

That's just the way technology is.

At some point fusion will be practical but I think it's likely to be turned into a pariah like fission has been, based of course on a lack of knowledge and hysterical loathing.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

And the current price for natural gas is $4.33/MMBTU. The funny thing about the price of the sun. It doesn't ever go up.
https://www.demac.com/reference-materials/oil-gas-prices/henry-hub-series/

That is why most energy companies are not using natural gas solely for their generation. Instead they are using combined cycle plants when other sources can't provide enough energy. This is with the ultimate goal of possibly eliminating the combined cycle plants as other sources of production and storage become available and cost effective.

Thanks Joke Biden for fucking up America's energy independence!

 

[cancel2 2022]

Current solar panels last 20-25 years and have an ROI of 10 years. A 25% tariff on imports would add less than 10% to the cost of a solar panel install. The majority of the cost is labor when it comes to installing solar panels. That would mean the ROI would go from 10 years to 11 years with a 20-25 your lifespan.

If solar panels are so wonderful then produce them in the US, you know that the economics of production are why they are all produced in China using coal and slave labour, arrogant twat!! This is one of the reasons why I detest the Regressive Left so much, they are full-on hypocrites.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-57124636

 

[cancel2 2022]

At some point fusion will be practical but I think it's likely to be turned into a pariah like fission has been, based of course on a lack of knowledge and hysterical loathing.

Bartender Effete thinks Moore's Law applies to renewables. If that were the case then wind turbines would be six foot tall and produces 20 MW by now!

 

[dukkha]

If solar panels are so wonderful then produce them in the US, you know that the economics of production are why they are all produced in China using coal and slave labour, arrogant twat!! This is one of the reasons why I detest the Regressive Left so much, they are full-on hypocrites.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-57124636

buying solar panels on any scale from China is insane new green deal stuff
Dems are stoopid

 

[BartenderElite]

Bartender Effete thinks Moore's Law applies to renewables. If that were the case then wind turbines would be six foot tall and produces 20 MW by now!

Still on w/ Moore's law, eh?

There were definitely people who also said computers could never be made for personal use, as well.