Should California secede and become an independent nation?

If would be a loss to the U.S. to lose any state but especially the largest. But people are acting like everything would be status quo if states like California and NY left, like no people nor businesses would leave those states in such a scenario and that’s just not reality.
 
I love how when thing aren’t going our way politically we talk about secession. It’s not the first time I’ve read such talk. Like Cawacko said, the guy is venting here, as many often do when things don’t go their way. But yea, got to count the cost of that stuff we take for granted.

It seems like every other vehicle around here has a California tag on it. Several in a row are apt to have Texas tags on them. Why are people leaving? Why are they coming here? (Secretly I’d rather they stay put an fight it out) My neighbor comes here from Detroit. My co-worker just sold his place to a couple from Pennsylvania. Hopefully they leave any liberal policies in the states from whence they came.

The WSJ had this interesting read yesterday on red and blue states post pandemic and the reds states have “won” in terms of job growth and recovering faster economically. That isn’t to say this won’t change at some point in the future, but for now people are leaving places like California, New York and Illinois and moving to more purple/red states. (The article doesn’t claim they are moving because of politics per se, rather cheaper prices, economy and schools opening up sooner and more job growth.)


https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/red-states-winning-post-pandemic-economy-migration-11657030536
 
If would be a loss to the U.S. to lose any state but especially the largest. But people are acting like everything would be status quo if states like California and NY left, like no people nor businesses would leave those states in such a scenario and that’s just not reality.

Neither NY nor CA were the largest States. They have both already effectively seceded.
 
The WSJ had this interesting read yesterday on red and blue states post pandemic and the reds states have “won” in terms of job growth and recovering faster economically. That isn’t to say this won’t change at some point in the future, but for now people are leaving places like California, New York and Illinois and moving to more purple/red states. (The article doesn’t claim they are moving because of politics per se, rather cheaper prices, economy and schools opening up sooner and more job growth.)


https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/red-states-winning-post-pandemic-economy-migration-11657030536

Making excuses about why people are fleeing the SDTC and the SOTNY now?????!? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
 
A local columnist in today's paper. I know the dude is basically venting and gives one line lip service to costs but yeah, how would we pay for a military? Or pay for people's pensions etc.? Would we create our own currency? And by creating our own country will our costs not go up higher? We already see businesses and people leaving the state, that won't happen at a higher level with increased taxes/cost of living?



Should California secede and become an independent nation?


To encourage us to think about the unthinkable, the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists sets a Doomsday Clock, showing how close humanity is (in metaphorical minutes and seconds) to the “midnight” of the apocalypse (nuclear or otherwise) and human extinction.

California may now need its own Independence Clock, showing how close we are to that seemingly unthinkable moment when our state has no choice but to depart the U.S. and become an independent nation.

That prospect recently drew unmistakably closer, courtesy of the U.S. Supreme Court.

First, justices overturned more than a century of legal precedent that had allowed communities in California to limit public gun possession — endangering laws that have spared us from some of the American epidemic of gun deaths by murder, suicide and accident.

Then, the court reversed Roe v. Wade and eliminated the federal constitutional right to abortion — a right protected by our state constitution as a right of privacy and supported by majorities of Californians of every political party, region and demographic group.

These decisions were like earthquakes — unsettling but unsurprising, given the justices’ frequent expressions of contempt for California in oral arguments (a bias I wrote about last year). They were enacted by a far-right court majority that exists because America’s anti-democratic Constitution gives less representation and less voting power to Californians, both in choosing a president (who nominates justices) and in electing a Senate (which confirms them).

The two Supreme Court decisions follow a fusillade of recent federal failings that have damaged California and harmed our people. These include a pandemic response that cost nearly 100,000 Californian lives, a generation-long “war on terror” that killed more soldiers from California than from any other state, attacks on our efforts to end the drug war and police abuses, attempts to cancel our environmental laws, denial and delay of disaster aid, accusations that our elections are fraudulent, and the violation of the rights of our immigrants and their families.

To cope, California has had to behave more like a separate nation than a state. We have adopted our own immigration policy, signed our own environmental treaties with other countries, funded our own research on subjects from guns to stem cells (in response to federal restrictions on such research), and successfully pressured carmakers and other corporations to privilege our state regulations over national ones, just to name a few.

But creating a quasi-nation creates costs that are hard on Californians. We weren’t designed to operate as an island. How much more can a state handle, governmentally, economically, emotionally?

The Supreme Court made clear that we can expect no respite in the future.

I say this not just because the court, for the first time, canceled a constitutional right in the abortion case, or because Clarence Thomas, in his concurrence, declared that the courts should cancel the rights to contraception and same-sex marriage. I say this because the court’s method of decision-making does not account for Californians’ lives or preferences.

Both the guns and abortion decisions rely on peculiar readings of history — focused on American and English practices of the 18th, 17th and earlier centuries, generations before women’s suffrage, before the end of slavery, before California was even a state. The decisions employ a mode of historical analogy that lacks the rigor of palm reading, much less serious legal analysis.

The troubles will persist beyond this court, which, with the retirement of Stephen Breyer, no longer has a single Californian among its justices. Given our disenfranchisement, what is to stop a future Congress and president from canceling our abortion laws, our protections for women or gay people or minorities or immigrants, our climate and environmental laws or even our commitment to making it easier for our people to vote?

As an optimist, I’ve previously argued that democratic reforms in California and elsewhere could solve this American crisis. With more and better participatory tools — from citizens assemblies to proportional representation to national referenda — the U.S. could re-found itself as a modern democracy. But the open hostility to democracy of this court, and among much of the American political elite, suggests that any such reforms do not stand a chance.

Departing the union seems beyond the pale. But so is the behavior of the American government. That’s why, as fanciful as a breakup of the country might still sound, the Independence Clock is ticking closer to midnight.

Polling from last year showed growing support, among Americans of all political persuasions, for removing their own state from the U.S. A University of Virginia poll found 4% support among Biden voters and 52% support among Trump voters for blue or red states seceding to form their own separate nations. A Bright Line poll in June 2021 found that 47% of Democrats in West Coast states favor forming their own nation.

Is it time for California to go? Probably not. But it’s not too early to pack a bag and make a departure plan. We badly need an open and ongoing statewide conversation, including major media and our elected leaders, about independence.

The day after Roe v. Wade fell, I found myself coaching in a youth sports tournament, which starts every game with the Pledge of Allegiance. I stood and put my hand over my heart, but found that I could no longer bring myself to recite the words.


https://www.sfchronicle.com/opinion/openforum/article/california-secession-17285860.php

only if they are prepared to walk away from US SS benefits and Medicare........those are for Americans...
 
A local columnist in today's paper. I know the dude is basically venting and gives one line lip service to costs but yeah, how would we pay for a military? Or pay for people's pensions etc.? Would we create our own currency? And by creating our own country will our costs not go up higher? We already see businesses and people leaving the state, that won't happen at a higher level with increased taxes/cost of living? ...

They can't secede and it would be economic ruin for them to do so. Anyone talking secession in the 21st century is a fucking moron.
 
Who's defending all these new countries and paying for their military? Are they going to count on the U.S. to defend them (like many of the European countries do)?
A significant portion of the US defense structure would partition with the new nations.
 
California, Texas, and New York/New England should all be separate nations from the US.

Texas is a shithole no matter what, so it's the least important for them. They like the "Lone Star" image, however, and nobody else cares if they live or die anyway.

California would be one of the world's major economies on its own.

New York / New England would be better off as part of Canada.

The US is clearly a failed experiment and clearly surpassed by more modern democracies.
It's the oldest, continuous, unchanged government on the planet and looks it as it sputters along, one fuckup after another.

Cut off Federal Welfare and EBT for all of California! Do it! :laugh: I wanna see this!
 
A local columnist in today's paper. I know the dude is basically venting and gives one line lip service to costs but yeah, how would we pay for a military? Or pay for people's pensions etc.? Would we create our own currency? And by creating our own country will our costs not go up higher? We already see businesses and people leaving the state, that won't happen at a higher level with increased taxes/cost of living?



Should California secede and become an independent nation?


To encourage us to think about the unthinkable, the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists sets a Doomsday Clock, showing how close humanity is (in metaphorical minutes and seconds) to the “midnight” of the apocalypse (nuclear or otherwise) and human extinction.

California may now need its own Independence Clock, showing how close we are to that seemingly unthinkable moment when our state has no choice but to depart the U.S. and become an independent nation.

That prospect recently drew unmistakably closer, courtesy of the U.S. Supreme Court.

First, justices overturned more than a century of legal precedent that had allowed communities in California to limit public gun possession — endangering laws that have spared us from some of the American epidemic of gun deaths by murder, suicide and accident.

Then, the court reversed Roe v. Wade and eliminated the federal constitutional right to abortion — a right protected by our state constitution as a right of privacy and supported by majorities of Californians of every political party, region and demographic group.

These decisions were like earthquakes — unsettling but unsurprising, given the justices’ frequent expressions of contempt for California in oral arguments (a bias I wrote about last year). They were enacted by a far-right court majority that exists because America’s anti-democratic Constitution gives less representation and less voting power to Californians, both in choosing a president (who nominates justices) and in electing a Senate (which confirms them).

The two Supreme Court decisions follow a fusillade of recent federal failings that have damaged California and harmed our people. These include a pandemic response that cost nearly 100,000 Californian lives, a generation-long “war on terror” that killed more soldiers from California than from any other state, attacks on our efforts to end the drug war and police abuses, attempts to cancel our environmental laws, denial and delay of disaster aid, accusations that our elections are fraudulent, and the violation of the rights of our immigrants and their families.

To cope, California has had to behave more like a separate nation than a state. We have adopted our own immigration policy, signed our own environmental treaties with other countries, funded our own research on subjects from guns to stem cells (in response to federal restrictions on such research), and successfully pressured carmakers and other corporations to privilege our state regulations over national ones, just to name a few.

But creating a quasi-nation creates costs that are hard on Californians. We weren’t designed to operate as an island. How much more can a state handle, governmentally, economically, emotionally?

The Supreme Court made clear that we can expect no respite in the future.

I say this not just because the court, for the first time, canceled a constitutional right in the abortion case, or because Clarence Thomas, in his concurrence, declared that the courts should cancel the rights to contraception and same-sex marriage. I say this because the court’s method of decision-making does not account for Californians’ lives or preferences.

Both the guns and abortion decisions rely on peculiar readings of history — focused on American and English practices of the 18th, 17th and earlier centuries, generations before women’s suffrage, before the end of slavery, before California was even a state. The decisions employ a mode of historical analogy that lacks the rigor of palm reading, much less serious legal analysis.

The troubles will persist beyond this court, which, with the retirement of Stephen Breyer, no longer has a single Californian among its justices. Given our disenfranchisement, what is to stop a future Congress and president from canceling our abortion laws, our protections for women or gay people or minorities or immigrants, our climate and environmental laws or even our commitment to making it easier for our people to vote?

As an optimist, I’ve previously argued that democratic reforms in California and elsewhere could solve this American crisis. With more and better participatory tools — from citizens assemblies to proportional representation to national referenda — the U.S. could re-found itself as a modern democracy. But the open hostility to democracy of this court, and among much of the American political elite, suggests that any such reforms do not stand a chance.

Departing the union seems beyond the pale. But so is the behavior of the American government. That’s why, as fanciful as a breakup of the country might still sound, the Independence Clock is ticking closer to midnight.

Polling from last year showed growing support, among Americans of all political persuasions, for removing their own state from the U.S. A University of Virginia poll found 4% support among Biden voters and 52% support among Trump voters for blue or red states seceding to form their own separate nations. A Bright Line poll in June 2021 found that 47% of Democrats in West Coast states favor forming their own nation.

Is it time for California to go? Probably not. But it’s not too early to pack a bag and make a departure plan. We badly need an open and ongoing statewide conversation, including major media and our elected leaders, about independence.

The day after Roe v. Wade fell, I found myself coaching in a youth sports tournament, which starts every game with the Pledge of Allegiance. I stood and put my hand over my heart, but found that I could no longer bring myself to recite the words.


https://www.sfchronicle.com/opinion/openforum/article/california-secession-17285860.php

At it again with this destructive succession nonsense to which federal issue would react. Better yet how's about the seditious repuke atrocity of insurrection and tRump and his gutter mob seceding from the face of humanity on Earth and end up in the sewer with their god the devil prior to making it a burning hell fire forever. Also, almost 50% of California is owned by the federal government:

Federal land policy involves the ownership and management of land owned by the federal government. As of 2012, the federal government owned between 635 million to 640 million acres, or 28 percent, of the 2.27 billion acres of land in the United States. Federal land is managed for many purposes, such as the conservation and development of natural resources, grazing and recreation. The federal government owns 47.70 percent of California's total land, 47,797,533 acres out of 100,206,720 total acres.

California ranked third in the nation in federal land ownership."

https://ballotpedia.org/Federal_lan... managed for,nation in federal land ownership.

Additionally, another matter among secessionist idiots who apparently don't know their ass from a hole in the ground:

Texans sent the federal government $261 billion in taxes in 2016, and the state government received $39.5 billion in grants in return, or about 15 percent of our total federal tax tab. Those grants were the state’s second-largest revenue source, providing more than a third of its net revenue in that year."

https://comptroller.texas.gov/econo...e federal government,net revenue in that year.
 
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California is one of the least dependent states on federal welfare, Matt.

To which red states depend on California in particular.

Blue states pay more than their fair share. Here are the receipts | Column
Conservatives might want to be careful when they talk about “owning” the libs.

So, with all the Republican animus toward the federal government, you might think that red states get less than their fair share from Uncle Sam — that they pay a lot in taxes and get fewer benefits in return than blue states. In fact, the opposite is true.

A study by the Rockefeller Institute of Government found that traditional Democratic states contributed significantly more federal taxes per citizen than Republican states. Here are the numbers for some blue states: Connecticut ($15,643), Massachusetts ($13,582), New Jersey ($13,137), New York ($12,820) and California ($10,510). And for some red states: Mississippi ($5,740), West Virginia ($6,349), Kentucky ($6,626) and South Carolina ($6,665)."
https://www.tampabay.com/opinion/20...heir-fair-share-here-are-the-receipts-column/
 
They can't secede and it would be economic ruin for them to do so. Anyone talking secession in the 21st century is a fucking moron.

I used to think that also. But no more.

Trump turned all that on its head. Trump allowed the filth of America to show its face and exert its will. That is now all toothpaste out of the tube...and it will never be put back in.

Some kind of partitioning must occur in order to solve our conflict...our "troubles."

I am not a moron, Unk. This is the direction in which America is heading.
 
To which red states depend on California in particular.

Blue states pay more than their fair share. Here are the receipts | Column
Conservatives might want to be careful when they talk about “owning” the libs.

So, with all the Republican animus toward the federal government, you might think that red states get less than their fair share from Uncle Sam — that they pay a lot in taxes and get fewer benefits in return than blue states. In fact, the opposite is true.

A study by the Rockefeller Institute of Government found that traditional Democratic states contributed significantly more federal taxes per citizen than Republican states. Here are the numbers for some blue states: Connecticut ($15,643), Massachusetts ($13,582), New Jersey ($13,137), New York ($12,820) and California ($10,510). And for some red states: Mississippi ($5,740), West Virginia ($6,349), Kentucky ($6,626) and South Carolina ($6,665)."
https://www.tampabay.com/opinion/20...heir-fair-share-here-are-the-receipts-column/

Yup. And when considered as "sent to Washington" versus "returned from Washington" the dollars are even more skewed to blue states paying for the Republic...and red states sucking from its teats.
 
I used to think that also. But no more.

Trump turned all that on its head. Trump allowed the filth of America to show its face and exert its will. That is now all toothpaste out of the tube...and it will never be put back in.

Some kind of partitioning must occur in order to solve our conflict...our "troubles."

I am not a moron, Unk. This is the direction in which America is heading.

I'd bet against it. Major economic upheaval if that happened. Much, much worse than Brexit.
 
California is one of the least dependent states on federal welfare, Matt.

:wrongkiddo:

Bwahaha! From South of San Diego on down, millions of illegals and American welfare recipients depend on Uncle Sugar checks and benefits.

They're 1st or 2nd for state welfare, too.
 
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