Science Is Libertarian

Timshel

New member
http://www.science20.com/science_20/blog/science_libertarian-120832

It is often the case that I get yelled at for being both too liberal and too conservative in the same week. It happens because the science under discussion violates the motivated reasoning of someone's political beliefs. No conservative ever complains that the policy implication of a science issue is a conservative one, obviously, but you can bet left-wing people will, and vice-versa.


And getting yelled at by both sides is as it should be. If someone is consistently railing about one political party or cultural issue under the guise of 'science', and always finds any arguments otherwise "unconvincing", they are guilty of that ruse of faux sincere skepticism I talk about - namely, that they have no ability to be evidence-based but want to convince you they are so they seem more reasonable.


Writing in Scientific American, super-skeptic Michael Shermer notes how the data sometimes changes his political libertarianism - he had been against gun control, for example, because of the freedom issue, but says statistics overwhelm that now. Well, maybe, but one should be wary of gun control advocacy statistics too - they are just as guilty as gun proponents of cherry picking and data mining of studies to suit ideological convictions. California has seen its gun murder rate plummet while gun ownership has gone way up (as has the entire US). Statistics show banning guns would primarily impact suicides, not shooting sprees, just as many shooting sprees happen in countries where guns are banned. See how easy that is?


Either way, the fact that statistics changed your mind is a sign you were never letting political positions overwhelm reason anyway. That is not an indictment of libertarianism, it is an endorsement of sanity.


He also says the data changed his opinion on global warming, which he had been skeptical of because of the "secular millenarianism" of some climate scientists and environmentalists, who are always forecasting doomsday and collecting checks doing so.


Agreed, they can be pretty tedious - siding with them requires not recognizing that environmentalists would have said we were dead 10,000 years ago also. But that also has nothing to do with data triumphing over libertarianism, it has everything to do with reason and science progress. In the early days of climate models, they really were terrible. Like a student who gets the right answer the wrong way, it was doing more harm than good for science to let crappy models go unchallenged. Climate scientists of today have been forced to really learn both statistics and modeling - it has been trial by fire - and we are all the better for it, because the head-fake of bad models is (mostly) unavailable to denialists now.


He gets discouraged because some libertarians are just never going to accept data. While gun ownership is too fuzzy sociologically to have a right and wrong answer, climate change is slowly winning because most people are not entrenched in their science based on their politics, any more than he is. Had he gone to a conference populated by Greenpeace or members of the Union of Concerned Scientists, he would have been just as demoralized by their inability to be swayed from their politics-first mentality but that is because the data set is people at the conference, who are already quite entrenched in their political beliefs.


So it isn't that libertarianism is wrong for science, it is actually just the opposite; science is inherently a libertarian activity, it requires intellectual freedom. Both corporations and the government, the only two sources of science funding in the modern world, recognize that a certain amount of freedom is needed, even while their own self-interests motivate them to manipulate what gets funded on the larger scale. Neither liberals or conservatives can help themselves when it comes to banning science projects their political beliefs are against.


So don't give up on libertarianism because of a few people hiding under that umbrella, Michael, any more than you gave up on climate science because of some people in that field. Yes, they have just as many goofy people as liberals and conservatives (though less than progressives), to wit:


Libertarianism isn't perfect and I am not a libertarian, except when it comes to science, but in an increasingly regulated world, more people are recognizing that independence and free-thinking are not happening in political crowds that claim to be liberal or conservative; they both have social authoritarian agendas and simply want to take your money to promote them.
 
http://www.science20.com/science_20/blog/science_libertarian-120832

It is often the case that I get yelled at for being both too liberal and too conservative in the same week. It happens because the science under discussion violates the motivated reasoning of someone's political beliefs. No conservative ever complains that the policy implication of a science issue is a conservative one, obviously, but you can bet left-wing people will, and vice-versa.


And getting yelled at by both sides is as it should be. If someone is consistently railing about one political party or cultural issue under the guise of 'science', and always finds any arguments otherwise "unconvincing", they are guilty of that ruse of faux sincere skepticism I talk about - namely, that they have no ability to be evidence-based but want to convince you they are so they seem more reasonable.


Writing in Scientific American, super-skeptic Michael Shermer notes how the data sometimes changes his political libertarianism - he had been against gun control, for example, because of the freedom issue, but says statistics overwhelm that now. Well, maybe, but one should be wary of gun control advocacy statistics too - they are just as guilty as gun proponents of cherry picking and data mining of studies to suit ideological convictions. California has seen its gun murder rate plummet while gun ownership has gone way up (as has the entire US). Statistics show banning guns would primarily impact suicides, not shooting sprees, just as many shooting sprees happen in countries where guns are banned. See how easy that is?


Either way, the fact that statistics changed your mind is a sign you were never letting political positions overwhelm reason anyway. That is not an indictment of libertarianism, it is an endorsement of sanity.


He also says the data changed his opinion on global warming, which he had been skeptical of because of the "secular millenarianism" of some climate scientists and environmentalists, who are always forecasting doomsday and collecting checks doing so.


Agreed, they can be pretty tedious - siding with them requires not recognizing that environmentalists would have said we were dead 10,000 years ago also. But that also has nothing to do with data triumphing over libertarianism, it has everything to do with reason and science progress. In the early days of climate models, they really were terrible. Like a student who gets the right answer the wrong way, it was doing more harm than good for science to let crappy models go unchallenged. Climate scientists of today have been forced to really learn both statistics and modeling - it has been trial by fire - and we are all the better for it, because the head-fake of bad models is (mostly) unavailable to denialists now.


He gets discouraged because some libertarians are just never going to accept data. While gun ownership is too fuzzy sociologically to have a right and wrong answer, climate change is slowly winning because most people are not entrenched in their science based on their politics, any more than he is. Had he gone to a conference populated by Greenpeace or members of the Union of Concerned Scientists, he would have been just as demoralized by their inability to be swayed from their politics-first mentality but that is because the data set is people at the conference, who are already quite entrenched in their political beliefs.


So it isn't that libertarianism is wrong for science, it is actually just the opposite; science is inherently a libertarian activity, it requires intellectual freedom. Both corporations and the government, the only two sources of science funding in the modern world, recognize that a certain amount of freedom is needed, even while their own self-interests motivate them to manipulate what gets funded on the larger scale. Neither liberals or conservatives can help themselves when it comes to banning science projects their political beliefs are against.


So don't give up on libertarianism because of a few people hiding under that umbrella, Michael, any more than you gave up on climate science because of some people in that field. Yes, they have just as many goofy people as liberals and conservatives (though less than progressives), to wit:


Libertarianism isn't perfect and I am not a libertarian, except when it comes to science, but in an increasingly regulated world, more people are recognizing that independence and free-thinking are not happening in political crowds that claim to be liberal or conservative; they both have social authoritarian agendas and simply want to take your money to promote them.
Holding a graduate degree in science myself I can only say that this is just plain silly. Science is neither conservative or liberal or libertarian. You're rationalizing.
 
The fact that the OP thinks that science in and of itself has a political bent is silly on its face. Now can science be used for political means? Of course. It is used by the "elites" to convince the rubes to do things that intuitively they know is wrong. For example, limiting the production of cost effective fossil fuels to "save the planet". That is an example of science being abused to support a political end of statism.

It is always the pseudo scientists who think they are the smartest people in the room and if only the rest of the masses would just acquiesce to their brilliance, all would be right in the world
 
Holding a graduate degree in science myself I can only say that this is just plain silly. Science is neither conservative or liberal or libertarian. You're rationalizing.

I did not write this or yet make a statement on it. So what could I be rationalizing?

His point was that science needs to be free of ideology. He used libertarian to mean "free" and also because he was referencing Schermer, who is a well known libertarian and skeptic.

Unfortunately there are some fake libertarians that abuse the science to make it fit libertarian ideals on freedom. But as he notes, conservatives and progressives abuse it for authoritarian reasons.
 
I did not write this or yet make a statement on it. So what could I be rationalizing?

His point was that science needs to be free of ideology. He used libertarian to mean "free" and also because he was referencing Schermer, who is a well known libertarian and skeptic.

Unfortunately there are some fake libertarians that abuse the science to make it fit libertarian ideals on freedom. But as he notes, conservatives and progressives abuse it for authoritarian reasons.
My apologies. I thought you were the author. Permit me to rephrase. What the author wrote is complete nonsense and is silly.
 
But it isn't and from your response it's not clear you got past the title.
I read it. He's reationalizing himself. Science has no political ideology. Science is it's own philosophy.

An honest statement is "Libertarians try to be scientific" and no doubt many do but that is not what the author states. He is rationalizing.
 
Libertarians are republicans who aren't warhawkish.
All 200 of them
That depends on what your talking about when you say "Libertarians". I hold quite a few libertarian ideals but the US "Libertarian Party" is a monument to ineptitude and incompetence and is stuffed mostly with wanna be anarchist.
 
http://www.science20.com/science_20/blog/science_libertarian-120832

It is often the case that I get yelled at for being both too liberal and too conservative in the same week. It happens because the science under discussion violates the motivated reasoning of someone's political beliefs. No conservative ever complains that the policy implication of a science issue is a conservative one, obviously, but you can bet left-wing people will, and vice-versa.


And getting yelled at by both sides is as it should be. If someone is consistently railing about one political party or cultural issue under the guise of 'science', and always finds any arguments otherwise "unconvincing", they are guilty of that ruse of faux sincere skepticism I talk about - namely, that they have no ability to be evidence-based but want to convince you they are so they seem more reasonable.


Writing in Scientific American, super-skeptic Michael Shermer notes how the data sometimes changes his political libertarianism - he had been against gun control, for example, because of the freedom issue, but says statistics overwhelm that now. Well, maybe, but one should be wary of gun control advocacy statistics too - they are just as guilty as gun proponents of cherry picking and data mining of studies to suit ideological convictions. California has seen its gun murder rate plummet while gun ownership has gone way up (as has the entire US). Statistics show banning guns would primarily impact suicides, not shooting sprees, just as many shooting sprees happen in countries where guns are banned. See how easy that is?


Either way, the fact that statistics changed your mind is a sign you were never letting political positions overwhelm reason anyway. That is not an indictment of libertarianism, it is an endorsement of sanity.


He also says the data changed his opinion on global warming, which he had been skeptical of because of the "secular millenarianism" of some climate scientists and environmentalists, who are always forecasting doomsday and collecting checks doing so.


Agreed, they can be pretty tedious - siding with them requires not recognizing that environmentalists would have said we were dead 10,000 years ago also. But that also has nothing to do with data triumphing over libertarianism, it has everything to do with reason and science progress. In the early days of climate models, they really were terrible. Like a student who gets the right answer the wrong way, it was doing more harm than good for science to let crappy models go unchallenged. Climate scientists of today have been forced to really learn both statistics and modeling - it has been trial by fire - and we are all the better for it, because the head-fake of bad models is (mostly) unavailable to denialists now.


He gets discouraged because some libertarians are just never going to accept data. While gun ownership is too fuzzy sociologically to have a right and wrong answer, climate change is slowly winning because most people are not entrenched in their science based on their politics, any more than he is. Had he gone to a conference populated by Greenpeace or members of the Union of Concerned Scientists, he would have been just as demoralized by their inability to be swayed from their politics-first mentality but that is because the data set is people at the conference, who are already quite entrenched in their political beliefs.


So it isn't that libertarianism is wrong for science, it is actually just the opposite; science is inherently a libertarian activity, it requires intellectual freedom. Both corporations and the government, the only two sources of science funding in the modern world, recognize that a certain amount of freedom is needed, even while their own self-interests motivate them to manipulate what gets funded on the larger scale. Neither liberals or conservatives can help themselves when it comes to banning science projects their political beliefs are against.


So don't give up on libertarianism because of a few people hiding under that umbrella, Michael, any more than you gave up on climate science because of some people in that field. Yes, they have just as many goofy people as liberals and conservatives (though less than progressives), to wit:


Libertarianism isn't perfect and I am not a libertarian, except when it comes to science, but in an increasingly regulated world, more people are recognizing that independence and free-thinking are not happening in political crowds that claim to be liberal or conservative; they both have social authoritarian agendas and simply want to take your money to promote them.

There's a real world outside your country and that makes your ideas full of shit. Just as full as libertarianism is and always will be. Pie in the sky hateful bullshit.
 
That depends on what your talking about when you say "Libertarians". I hold quite a few libertarian ideals but the US "Libertarian Party" is a monument to ineptitude and incompetence and is stuffed mostly with wanna be anarchist.

It's made in the US and there's nothing more redeeming about it outside the US nuthouse.
 
http://www.science20.com/science_20/blog/science_libertarian-120832

It is often the case that I get yelled at for being both too liberal and too conservative in the same week. It happens because the science under discussion violates the motivated reasoning of someone's political beliefs. No conservative ever complains that the policy implication of a science issue is a conservative one, obviously, but you can bet left-wing people will, and vice-versa.


And getting yelled at by both sides is as it should be. If someone is consistently railing about one political party or cultural issue under the guise of 'science', and always finds any arguments otherwise "unconvincing", they are guilty of that ruse of faux sincere skepticism I talk about - namely, that they have no ability to be evidence-based but want to convince you they are so they seem more reasonable.


Writing in Scientific American, super-skeptic Michael Shermer notes how the data sometimes changes his political libertarianism - he had been against gun control, for example, because of the freedom issue, but says statistics overwhelm that now. Well, maybe, but one should be wary of gun control advocacy statistics too - they are just as guilty as gun proponents of cherry picking and data mining of studies to suit ideological convictions. California has seen its gun murder rate plummet while gun ownership has gone way up (as has the entire US). Statistics show banning guns would primarily impact suicides, not shooting sprees, just as many shooting sprees happen in countries where guns are banned. See how easy that is?


Either way, the fact that statistics changed your mind is a sign you were never letting political positions overwhelm reason anyway. That is not an indictment of libertarianism, it is an endorsement of sanity.


He also says the data changed his opinion on global warming, which he had been skeptical of because of the "secular millenarianism" of some climate scientists and environmentalists, who are always forecasting doomsday and collecting checks doing so.


Agreed, they can be pretty tedious - siding with them requires not recognizing that environmentalists would have said we were dead 10,000 years ago also. But that also has nothing to do with data triumphing over libertarianism, it has everything to do with reason and science progress. In the early days of climate models, they really were terrible. Like a student who gets the right answer the wrong way, it was doing more harm than good for science to let crappy models go unchallenged. Climate scientists of today have been forced to really learn both statistics and modeling - it has been trial by fire - and we are all the better for it, because the head-fake of bad models is (mostly) unavailable to denialists now.


He gets discouraged because some libertarians are just never going to accept data. While gun ownership is too fuzzy sociologically to have a right and wrong answer, climate change is slowly winning because most people are not entrenched in their science based on their politics, any more than he is. Had he gone to a conference populated by Greenpeace or members of the Union of Concerned Scientists, he would have been just as demoralized by their inability to be swayed from their politics-first mentality but that is because the data set is people at the conference, who are already quite entrenched in their political beliefs.


So it isn't that libertarianism is wrong for science, it is actually just the opposite; science is inherently a libertarian activity, it requires intellectual freedom. Both corporations and the government, the only two sources of science funding in the modern world, recognize that a certain amount of freedom is needed, even while their own self-interests motivate them to manipulate what gets funded on the larger scale. Neither liberals or conservatives can help themselves when it comes to banning science projects their political beliefs are against.


So don't give up on libertarianism because of a few people hiding under that umbrella, Michael, any more than you gave up on climate science because of some people in that field. Yes, they have just as many goofy people as liberals and conservatives (though less than progressives), to wit:


Libertarianism isn't perfect and I am not a libertarian, except when it comes to science, but in an increasingly regulated world, more people are recognizing that independence and free-thinking are not happening in political crowds that claim to be liberal or conservative; they both have social authoritarian agendas and simply want to take your money to promote them.

Reading your posts I've always seen you as being Libertarian Left. Libertarian Right are the typical Fox News style Libertarians that sound like Glen Beck, Bill O'Reilly and Sean Hannity. Most people don't know there are wings even in the Libertarian party.

I tend to think that there shouldn't be a Libertarian party because every party should stand for Liberty. But we haven't seen much of that lately so we have what we have.

I get criticized all the time for being either a Libertarian or a Liberal or a Republican. No one gets me because I have my own perspective and refuse to submit to a party. I'm Conservative with money, but not with ideals and education. I'm Liberal with change but not with money. I believe in the Liberty of the people, but not of the Free Market. I also acknowledge that Liberty is a compound word in where one persons Liberty can result in a cascade of others getting their Liberties infringed. I solve the Liberty debate with Risk vs. Necessity.

Just a shout out from one lone ranger to another.
 
I would have liked the article more if he had said science isn't political. Libertarians are still a political party; science shouldn't be libertarian anymore than it should be democratic or republican.

Absolutely science demands intellectual freedom. But that doesn't mean libertarianism necessarily.
 
I read it. He's reationalizing himself. Science has no political ideology. Science is it's own philosophy.

An honest statement is "Libertarians try to be scientific" and no doubt many do but that is not what the author states. He is rationalizing.

He did not say that science had an ideology or that libertarians were scientific. In fact, he related how Schermer felt his libertarian ideology had misled him and was discouraged by libertarians that were resistant to science. His point, that science is libertarian, again, was more that it is dependent on intellectual freedom.
 
He's 13. That's all you need to know.

monty1 is the ONLY person I've met on this forum that knows anything about global politics. This is fact. No one here knows a thing about global politics except him.

I won't vouch for everything he says but I guarantee he knows more about it than you. He's only trying to inform others.

I'm advanced in global politics and know you have to ease it in..The American people have no clue what the CIA is doing even if they can use an internet search to figure it out. The rest of the world knows what we are up to and doesn't need to do that search.
 
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