schools/libraries

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

1. In Alabama I seriously doubt they spend 9k per a person.
2. I'm not going to take any of this shit you made up off the top of your head for truth.
3. Public education works in every nation on Earth, private education works in no nation on Earth. Use common sense.

http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=66
SOURCE: U.S. Department of Education, National Center for Education Statistics. (2008)

According these guys, we spend $9,266.00 per pupil for public education. Do you also want to see my receipt for the private academy tuition of $5k?

Public education doesn't work in America, and that is all I am really concerned about. I couldn't care less what other countries do.

 

[uscitizen]

That was nationwide in that article. Not for alabama.

Are you saying the same amount is spent in dothan as in LA per schoolchild ?

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

That was nationwide in that article. Not for alabama.

Are you saying the same amount is spent in dothan as in LA per schoolchild ?

How the fuck do I know? In my original post, I clearly said, "ON AVERAVGE, AMERICANS ARE PAYING AROUND $9K PER STUDENT..." That was challenged by Waterhead, and I posted the fucking source! What the fuck is your problem, now you want to SPIN what I said into something I didn't say?

 

[Don Quixote]

How does voting against EXPANDING a library in Alaska, equate to: All Cons Want to Ban Public Libraries?

i did not say all, i said most - when referring to a group i would not use the term all as that is reserved for fools

and i did not say that it equated to all cons, but was referring to her

most cons want private schools (usually religious) paid for from government funds

while i tend to agree that private schools are better than public, if we are to have an informed electorate, we need better public schools and libraries with more parental involvement

ps while damo may tend to be a con, i think that he favors public schools and education

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

i did not say all, i said most - when referring to a group i would not use the term all as that is reserved for fools

and i did not say that it equated to all cons, but was referring to her

most cons want private schools (usually religious) paid for from government funds

while i tend to agree that private schools are better than public, if we are to have an informed electorate, we need better public schools and libraries with more parental involvement

ps while damo may tend to be a con, i think that he favors public schools and education

Here is what you said: "why is it that most conservatives do not want public schools or public libraries..."

Now you admit you said "most conservatives" then say you was referring to Sarah Palin in particular, but I see no indication Palin ever advocated abolishing schools or libraries, and I can find no such measure ever proposed or suggested by a conservative, or liberal for that matter. She did oppose the expansion of a library, but that isn't "opposing public libraries", as you stated.

Essentially, you just flat out lied. I guess that's okay, you guys don't seem to mind it anymore, you just throw lie after lie out there, and hope people are too ignorant to pay attention.

 

[Don Quixote]

I am a Conservative... some say, an 'extreme' Conservative... I have never favored having 'no public libraries' or banning any book from it, with the generally accepted exceptions of visual pornography and terrorist manuals, etc. I have never favored doing away with public funding for schools or education, I think it is one of government's key responsibilities. I am in favor of a voucher program, and so are many others who are faced with the debacle that has become our public educational system. I don't swallow the teacher's union koolaid of continuing to throw my money at something that just isn't working. I believe every family should have a choice of schools, and let the schools compete for their child's education. What the hell is so 'extreme' about that, I have no clue. It makes perfect sense to me.

What Liberals want, is to federally fund smut huts they call 'libraries' and 'whore houses' they continue to call public schools. Liberals say they want "Change" but do they? Not when it comes to schools and libraries, they want no change... just pay teachers more and expand more smut-wings on the libraries... and do it with the tax they bilk from the 'wealthy' public!

my my, such vitriol

i tend to agree that teachers unions may have too much power, but if they have as much power as you say why do they not get more funding

as for porn palaces and whorehouses, perhaps you exaggerate

a public institution is supposed to serve the entire public (well not the incarcerated perhaps) not just those that want to control what is available for adults - i am not a fan of banning information (some properly classified information aside) because who gets to decide

as for your sweeping statements, please note that i refrain from using the word 'all' - i have listened and read material regarding the establishment of public sources of education and information - i will not say that it is always or even mostly done well

parents need to be involved more with their children's learning

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

my my, such vitriol

i tend to agree that teachers unions may have too much power, but if they have as much power as you say why do they not get more funding

Because they are already getting about $9k per student, which is about DOUBLE what it costs in the private sector, and our kids aren't getting educated! Why the fuck do you think they deserve MORE of our tax dollars?

as for porn palaces and whorehouses, perhaps you exaggerate

Have you been to a typical high school lately? Since the abolition of 'corporal punishment' we have kids literally running the show, and teachers living in fear of lawsuits. There is no control, no authority, and no order. It's mayhem for the most part, and most of the teachers consider themselves lucky to make it home in one piece at the end of the day.

As for libraries... I was a member of "Friends of the Library" in my community for about 12 years... (yeah, me, a 'Con who hates libraries', go figure?) I stopped being a member when the leader of the group (a liberal) started advocating a push to have no restrictions on internet access... including porn sites. No, I don't mean like "walt whitman is porn" ...I mean, like Hustler and MistressHelga.com! I'm sorry, but a public library is no place for porn, in my opinion.

a public institution is supposed to serve the entire public (well not the incarcerated perhaps) not just those that want to control what is available for adults - i am not a fan of banning information (some properly classified information aside) because who gets to decide

I think the community gets to decide if they want to allow their tax dollars to fund porn shops. I have no problem with 'literature' of any kind, but I draw the line at visual and graphic pornography, it has no place in a public library, there are plenty of other outlets for it, and the general public doesn't need to have it slapping them in the face when they visit their local library.

as for your sweeping statements, please note that i refrain from using the word 'all' - i have listened and read material regarding the establishment of public sources of education and information - i will not say that it is always or even mostly done well

Hey, I wasn't the one who made the sweeping statement about "most cons don't want public libraries or schools." That was you, and we established it was a bold faced lie.

parents need to be involved more with their children's learning

And how the fuck is this supposed to happen if the Democrats refuse to allow any change in the status quot, because they are beholden to the teacher's lobby? I agree with you! Let's set up a viable vouchers program, where parents can get a federal/state voucher to use in a variety of educational options, private schools, charter schools, academies, or home schooling! Let's allow parents to have this flexibility and force schools to compete for their business by offering a superior product to their competition. Good teachers would be in demand, and as such, would demand premium salaries, and bad teachers would have to find another job... I hear there is a position open as teleprompter operator at the RNC!

 

[Don Quixote]

Because they are already getting about $9k per student, which is about DOUBLE what it costs in the private sector, and our kids aren't getting educated! Why the fuck do you think they deserve MORE of our tax dollars?



Have you been to a typical high school lately? Since the abolition of 'corporal punishment' we have kids literally running the show, and teachers living in fear of lawsuits. There is no control, no authority, and no order. It's mayhem for the most part, and most of the teachers consider themselves lucky to make it home in one piece at the end of the day.

As for libraries... I was a member of "Friends of the Library" in my community for about 12 years... (yeah, me, a 'Con who hates libraries', go figure?) I stopped being a member when the leader of the group (a liberal) started advocating a push to have no restrictions on internet access... including porn sites. No, I don't mean like "walt whitman is porn" ...I mean, like Hustler and MistressHelga.com! I'm sorry, but a public library is no place for porn, in my opinion.



I think the community gets to decide if they want to allow their tax dollars to fund porn shops. I have no problem with 'literature' of any kind, but I draw the line at visual and graphic pornography, it has no place in a public library, there are plenty of other outlets for it, and the general public doesn't need to have it slapping them in the face when they visit their local library.



Hey, I wasn't the one who made the sweeping statement about "most cons don't want public libraries or schools." That was you, and we established it was a bold faced lie.



And how the fuck is this supposed to happen if the Democrats refuse to allow any change in the status quot, because they are beholden to the teacher's lobby? I agree with you! Let's set up a viable vouchers program, where parents can get a federal/state voucher to use in a variety of educational options, private schools, charter schools, academies, or home schooling! Let's allow parents to have this flexibility and force schools to compete for their business by offering a superior product to their competition. Good teachers would be in demand, and as such, would demand premium salaries, and bad teachers would have to find another job... I hear there is a position open as teleprompter operator at the RNC!

i think that cons came up with the idea of using vouchers rather than trying to fix the system - your above described system will still leave some students to try to find a decent education - decent teachers and schools will disappear from impoverished areas and the decent students in those areas will suffer more than they do now

if the system is broken, then fix it

or is it that the schools in your area do not teach the things that you want taught and teaches things that you do not want taught

charter schools exist (in some areas) and more can be created, but that is still not the solution - we need to reach ALL students or we have failed them and our nation

as for discipline, i went to two high schools neither of which used corporeal punishment and the teachers were neither abused nor fearful at either of them nor were they hot beds of sexual activity

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

i think that cons came up with the idea of using vouchers rather than trying to fix the system - your above described system will still leave some students to try to find a decent education - decent teachers and schools will disappear from impoverished areas and the decent students in those areas will suffer more than they do now

if the system is broken, then fix it

The system can't be fixed, it is fundamentally flawed. We have been throwing more and more money down the crapper for years, and nothing has improved, it has only gotten worse. It is precisely because the education system is socialist and not capitalist. The only motivational incentive present in public education, is to get more students attending so you can get more money from the government. There is no incentive to improve education.

As for your point about disparity of education in impoverished areas under a vouchers program is hogwash. You seem to think only people in nice neighborhoods will get an education voucher, or that a school would not be interested in the money from the impoverished. Good old fashioned capitalism refutes that notion completely. Where there is a buck to be made, there will be a capitalist there to make it, and it would be no different for the impoverished than any other place, the vouchers would be the same value everywhere, for everyone.

or is it that the schools in your area do not teach the things that you want taught and teaches things that you do not want taught

You know, I've about fucking had it with you pinheads and your insinuations. I have never in my life advocated restrictions in what is taught as a part of educating our youth. I want as much crammed into their little mush-brains as possible, as efficiently and effectively as possible, the more the better. Give them ALL the information, teach them about Darwin and Evolution, but also teach them about Intelligent Design. Teach them about contraception and sexuality, but also teach them about abstinence and the importance of developing fundamentally strong relationships, not based on sex. Give them ALL the information, in every instance, and let them make up their own minds as to what to believe and think.

charter schools exist (in some areas) and more can be created, but that is still not the solution - we need to reach ALL students or we have failed them and our nation

Again, we can't do it because the Democrat Party is beholden to the Teacher's Lobby, and we can't touch the "sacred cow" of public education! Oh, we can throw another $50 billion at the problem and not solve it, but why? We know the system doesn't work, and is never going to work, because there is absolutely no reason for it to work, not at educating our children. A vibrant educational voucher program would introduce 'capitalism' into the equation, and because of that, schools would have an incentive to actually educate our kids! If they failed to do a good job, we go somewhere else, and they go out of business, simple as that. The competition would force them to place an emphasis on better education, better methods, innovative approaches that work, because they want our money, and they need our money to remain in business. As it stands now, they just get our money without having to do a damn thing, except have students show up.

as for discipline, i went to two high schools neither of which used corporeal punishment and the teachers were neither abused nor fearful at either of them nor were they hot beds of sexual activity

Well, not to knock your dual-school experience, but because of my job, I had a close connection to over 150 high schools across the US, in big cities and small towns, and my 3 daughters attended a total of 25 schools through the years, most of which I was a member of the PTA. I can assure you, your experience is a rarity. It has gotten worse in recent years. I mentioned before, my oldest daughter went to an academy, but my youngest daughter graduated from public school this past May, and I had lunch with her a few times at her school. I personally witnessed students calling their teachers by either their first names or disrespectfully using just their last name, when addressing them. They back-talked and cussed them to their face, as if they were talking to a freshman on the first day of class. Twice during her high school years, I had to go visit the Principal about male teachers making overtly sexual remarks and advances toward her. After three attempts to do something about it, I had to start taking her to school instead of letting her ride the bus, because of male students trying to basically fondle and molest her on the bus, and the driver never did a thing.

So, I don't know where you went to school, or when, but if things were as you say, you were indeed lucky and fortunate. This is certainly not the case in the vast majority of high schools in America, and in NONE of the schools I have ever been associated with in the past 20 years.

 

[Don Quixote]

The system can't be fixed, it is fundamentally flawed. We have been throwing more and more money down the crapper for years, and nothing has improved, it has only gotten worse. It is precisely because the education system is socialist and not capitalist. The only motivational incentive present in public education, is to get more students attending so you can get more money from the government. There is no incentive to improve education.

As for your point about disparity of education in impoverished areas under a vouchers program is hogwash. You seem to think only people in nice neighborhoods will get an education voucher, or that a school would not be interested in the money from the impoverished. Good old fashioned capitalism refutes that notion completely. Where there is a buck to be made, there will be a capitalist there to make it, and it would be no different for the impoverished than any other place, the vouchers would be the same value everywhere, for everyone.



You know, I've about fucking had it with you pinheads and your insinuations. I have never in my life advocated restrictions in what is taught as a part of educating our youth. I want as much crammed into their little mush-brains as possible, as efficiently and effectively as possible, the more the better. Give them ALL the information, teach them about Darwin and Evolution, but also teach them about Intelligent Design. Teach them about contraception and sexuality, but also teach them about abstinence and the importance of developing fundamentally strong relationships, not based on sex. Give them ALL the information, in every instance, and let them make up their own minds as to what to believe and think.



Again, we can't do it because the Democrat Party is beholden to the Teacher's Lobby, and we can't touch the "sacred cow" of public education! Oh, we can throw another $50 billion at the problem and not solve it, but why? We know the system doesn't work, and is never going to work, because there is absolutely no reason for it to work, not at educating our children. A vibrant educational voucher program would introduce 'capitalism' into the equation, and because of that, schools would have an incentive to actually educate our kids! If they failed to do a good job, we go somewhere else, and they go out of business, simple as that. The competition would force them to place an emphasis on better education, better methods, innovative approaches that work, because they want our money, and they need our money to remain in business. As it stands now, they just get our money without having to do a damn thing, except have students show up.



Well, not to knock your dual-school experience, but because of my job, I had a close connection to over 150 high schools across the US, in big cities and small towns, and my 3 daughters attended a total of 25 schools through the years, most of which I was a member of the PTA. I can assure you, your experience is a rarity. It has gotten worse in recent years. I mentioned before, my oldest daughter went to an academy, but my youngest daughter graduated from public school this past May, and I had lunch with her a few times at her school. I personally witnessed students calling their teachers by either their first names or disrespectfully using just their last name, when addressing them. They back-talked and cussed them to their face, as if they were talking to a freshman on the first day of class. Twice during her high school years, I had to go visit the Principal about male teachers making overtly sexual remarks and advances toward her. After three attempts to do something about it, I had to start taking her to school instead of letting her ride the bus, because of male students trying to basically fondle and molest her on the bus, and the driver never did a thing.

So, I don't know where you went to school, or when, but if things were as you say, you were indeed lucky and fortunate. This is certainly not the case in the vast majority of high schools in America, and in NONE of the schools I have ever been associated with in the past 20 years.

university high, west los angeles, ca 1960/61
palisades high, pacific palisades, ca grad 1963

the local high school where i live seems to have a decent reputation, but there is quite a bit of parental involvement

i disagree with teaching creationism unless all religion's creation beliefs are taught - perhaps a course in world religions would be more appropriate - including native american (my father was born on a reservation)

my children were fortunate because they went to a magnet school - valley alternative school, san fernando valley, ca

as for calling teachers by first or last name, things are more relaxed in southern california and it depends on the teacher

i will the first to admit that schools in los angeles need improvement in discipline and academics - there is too much gang involvement and recreational drugs

perhaps smaller school districts would be better than gigantic ones like los angeles unified school district

our older boy went to a high school in a town called ridgecrest for a while and there was definitely sexual activity - despite being isolated in the mojave desert and having the highest per capita education of any city/town - he now runs his own business and employs several people

ps capitalism has been demonstrated not to work as has communism although the soviets and chinese claimed to practice it they were in fact totalitarian governments

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

university high, west los angeles, ca 1960/61
palisades high, pacific palisades, ca grad 1963

LOL... and you feel this experience qualifies you to speak with authority on high school life in 2008?

the local high school where i live seems to have a decent reputation, but there is quite a bit of parental involvement

Well Don, most high schools have a 'decent reputation', because the system keeps it that way, don't you see? Oh, everyone in town from the mayor to the newspaper editor want the local high school to get it's federal funding... they will initiate attendance drives, so that every head is counted, because this gets them a bigger check from our tax dollars. So the whole system is set up to take advantage of this. Of course they have a stellar reputation! My goodness, what would we do on Friday nights, if we didn't have the local high school football game? Yes there is indeed parental involvement, but parents are not the educators, are they?

i disagree with teaching creationism unless all religion's creation beliefs are taught - perhaps a course in world religions would be more appropriate - including native american (my father was born on a reservation)

I disagree with teaching "creationism" too. Unless it is taught in context of a class on comprehensive religion. Intelligent Design is not Creationism, it is a different thing altogether. While Creationists may support ID, the question of intelligent involvement in our origin is unknown, and thus, the possibility exists. It has nothing to do with Religion or Creationism. We are discussing Knowledge... I think we should err on the side of MORE rather than LESS.

my children were fortunate because they went to a magnet school - valley alternative school, san fernando valley, ca

Yes, they were, magnet schools are great, and that is how charter schools would be as well. There would be that emphasis on actually EDUCATING our children, not running them through the socialist money machine and spitting them out as complete social degenerates.

as for calling teachers by first or last name, things are more relaxed in southern california and it depends on the teacher

Calling someone by their last name, is a common way of exercising authority or superiority over someone, and should never be done by a student to a teacher. I am sure you are familiar with military customs in California, and this is standard procedure with authority in the military. How can a teacher effectively educate a student with such little respect for his/her authority?

i will the first to admit that schools in los angeles need improvement in discipline and academics - there is too much gang involvement and recreational drugs

Well now, I though they seemed to have a decent reputation? I thought there was no need for corporal punishment? Yeah, I guess gangs and drugs might interfere with the teachers hitting on the students, huh? I see your point.... NOT!

perhaps smaller school districts would be better than gigantic ones like los angeles unified school district

our older boy went to a high school in a town called ridgecrest for a while and there was definitely sexual activity - despite being isolated in the mojave desert and having the highest per capita education of any city/town - he now runs his own business and employs several people

ps capitalism has been demonstrated not to work as has communism although the soviets and chinese claimed to practice it they were in fact totalitarian governments

Capitalism has been demonstrated not to work, WHERE? ...HERE? No, I don't think so. Our system is designed and based on freedom and capitalism. It works everywhere it is tried, and Communist Socialism fails. It ironically fails for the same reason Public Education fails, it doesn't reward results and success, it provides for the basic need, without a motivation to improve.

Our schools are failing because they are little socialist enterprises, sucking our tax dollars down a sewer hole, and begging for more. The Teacher's Lobby has used their influence to convince the Democrat Whores in Washington, that we need to fight against change and reform of the system at all costs, no charter schools or voucher programs, just send more money! So the Whores go out and convince people like you, they are 'just looking out for the impoverished' ...and, 'what will happen to our inner cities?' ...and, 'what about the teachers who will lose their jobs because of it?' And of course, you gulp it down like the rest of the koolaid they feed you, because you are brainwashed, you can't help it.

Look here in this very thread... you are essentially agreeing with me that schools are pretty damn bad... gangs, drugs, sex... and we see the constantly dropping test scores, it's public record... and you really can't come up with a good reason not to introduce capitalist enterprise into the education system, or refute any of my legitimate points on what it would accomplish.... but, you are still not on board... still carrying the water for your party, the teacher's union, and a completely failed socialist enterprise.

Oh but... your party promises Hope and Change..... right?

 

[Mott the Hoople]

why is it that most conservatives do not want public schools or public libraries and most liberals want public schools and public libraries

Well that's pretty self evident. Conservatives want to preserve the status quo. That can only be accomplished by regulating the information that you receive.
By definition being liberal means being broad and open minded. To be so one must be well read from a diversity of literature.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

Where the fuck do you come up with your stupidity?

Where do you? I haven't heard to many liberal politicians advocating book bannings from Public Libraries.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

Have you considered the possibility that it didn't need to be expanded?

Well Brent, if the community was populated by people like you, you'd have a good point. There's be no point in expanding a library.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

There is also the possibility that the town could not afford it?

Someone brings up a measure to expand the library but had no way to pay for it. There is nothing to do but vote against it, no matter how noble the idea may be.

Actually the controversy was that Palin was advocating specific books be banned from the Wasilla public library.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

I am a Conservative... some say, an 'extreme' Conservative... I have never favored having 'no public libraries' or banning any book from it, with the generally accepted exceptions of visual pornography and terrorist manuals, etc. I have never favored doing away with public funding for schools or education, I think it is one of government's key responsibilities. I am in favor of a voucher program, and so are many others who are faced with the debacle that has become our public educational system. I don't swallow the teacher's union koolaid of continuing to throw my money at something that just isn't working. I believe every family should have a choice of schools, and let the schools compete for their child's education. What the hell is so 'extreme' about that, I have no clue. It makes perfect sense to me.

What Liberals want, is to federally fund smut huts they call 'libraries' and 'whore houses' they continue to call public schools. Liberals say they want "Change" but do they? Not when it comes to schools and libraries, they want no change... just pay teachers more and expand more smut-wings on the libraries... and do it with the tax they bilk from the 'wealthy' public!

Dixie, you have not nor ever have been a conservative. Words have meanings and your no conservative. You are the very definition of a reactionary.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

Don't know what studies you are looking at, but that isn't true. The average American is now paying almost $9k per year, per student for public education. I sent my daughter to a private academy in the 9th grade, it cost around $5k for the year, and her ACT scores were higher then the Valedictorian from her former school.

Test scores indicate, charter schools beat the living brains out of public schools in every area. In fact, the only two areas they don't beat public schools, is cost to the individual and federal/state funding. From a purely educational standpoint, there is no comparison, they are far superior.

Now you have to ask yourself, if these schools are so great, why aren't we doing this more? It's because the powerful teachers union lobby has the Democrat party in their hip pocket. Mind-numbed imbeciles march in lockstep to support the continuation of a broken and failed public education system, because the party leaders have sold them bunch of absolute bullshit, like DQ posted above. No Conservative wants to do away with public funding for schools, or even public schools for that matter, if they can get their act together and actually EDUCATE our kids for a change!

Dixie your an idiot. Charter schools perform better because they cherry pick the best students and provide them additional resources.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

Or, they only need two books, the Republican Guide to Voting and the BIBLE!

No...the Sears Robuck Catalog and the Bible.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=66
SOURCE: U.S. Department of Education, National Center for Education Statistics. (2008)

According these guys, we spend $9,266.00 per pupil for public education. Do you also want to see my receipt for the private academy tuition of $5k?

Public education doesn't work in America, and that is all I am really concerned about. I couldn't care less what other countries do.

In certain parts of the country you may be right. I've spent a lot of time in the south and I know about the public schools in Alabama, South Carolina and Arkansas and........THANK GOD I GRADUATED FROM PUBLIC SCHOOL IN IOWA!!!!!!!!!!!!

That public education doesn't work in the south is due to a self full filling prophecy by the reactionary politicians in those states

 

[Sammy Jankis]

Both parties are in favor of dumbing down the nation. Stupid people are easier to manage.