Not prohibiting the free exersize of religen does not give you the right to lead prayer in public school. Thanks for proving my point!
School Prayer...
- Thread starter Jarod
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Not prohibiting the free exersize of religen does not give you the right to lead prayer in public school. Thanks for proving my point!
Dixie, why don't you quit telling us what your position is not and tell us what it is. You have already stated that you would limit the prayer to some non denominational form. I'd like to know what kind of prayers would be acceptable and unacceptable under this standard?
Your position is indefensible. If teachers enjoy a right to practice religion within the school, limiting the practice to a non denominational form is a clear violation of their first amendment rights.
Your position is indefensible. If teachers enjoy a right to practice religion within the school, limiting the practice to a non denominational form is a clear violation of their first amendment rights.
You ask;
Dixie, why don't you quit telling us what your position is not and tell us what it is.
And then in your very next paragraph you demonstrate exactly why he does it....
You guys keep misrepresenting what he posts and he has to clarify what he says over and over and over....I experience the same crap on a regular basis also....
Heres his post again, read it slowly :
I did not misrepresent a God damn thing. I have asked him to clarify. Read the thread, Dixie argued that the prayer must be in a non denominational form.
This does not tell us a damn thing. Obviously, Dixie has argued that there would be certain restrictions. He has mentioned voluntary, extra curricular (I don't see how that allows the teacher to lead a class in prayer) and non denominational. What are the rest? What is an example of when the line is crossed? Not just outlandish ones, like yelling obscenities, but the more subtle ones.
The court's job is to clarify the law. What Dixie has argued should replace current rulings is not clear at all. School administrators and teachers would have no clear guideline of what is allowed and what is not.
Dixie - In Memoriam
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Actually I just disproved your point, you are just too ignorant to understand that. Freedom of speech doesn't allow you to yell obscenities in public, or fire in a theater, etc. And, Freedom of Religion doesn't allow you to proselytize to captive students as an agent of the government. These are restrictions placed on your freedom because they interfere with the freedoms of others. You can't infringe on one person's constitutional rights to allow those of another.
Voluntary initiation and participation in a non-denominational prayer, is not a violation of any other person's right, no one is being forced to pray, it is not something that is mandatory or required. Since this free exercise of religion is not interfering or infringing on another person's right (as mandatory prayer would do), then it isn't unconstitutional, and IS constitutionally protected under the 1st Amendment. The only argument or basis for denying this right, is the fact it is taking place in a government building. But a building doesn't have constitutional rights!
In a building by an agent of the governemnt who has a respected position by virtue of that position. Do you belive that teacher should be allowed to lead any volentary prayer of his/her choosing?
Teachers and Administrators have clear guidelines....
they are not to participate, lead, author, or even express religious views while acting in their capacity as Teachers or Administrators...
otherwise, they enjoy the same right of free speech as you do, even on school property or in a government building.......
If thats not the way it is, its the way it should be
I didn't see any posts that conflicted with this, but then I certainly could have missed something....
ps...the same should hold true about political views also....but it obviously doesn't, the liberal indoctrination of school kids goes on...
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Dixie - In Memoriam
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I haven't said anything "must be!" I am not sitting here dictating the rules to you, like I am a king! That is what Liberals like to do, and I can certainly understand you think other people want to do the same thing, but really, they don't. I stated that a 'non-denominational' prayer, led by a school official who volunteered to do it, not as a part of the regular classroom itinerary, with students who voluntarily participate, shouldn't be unconstitutional and should be protected under the 1st Amendment.
See? I am not DEMANDING this, I am not saying this SHALL be the law! I am stating MY position on the matter, and I have given my explanation for why I hold this position. I have backed my position with the Constitution, and rights spelled out in black and white. So far, the only 'counter' to my argument, has been absurd abstracts of what I've said, coupled with baseless outrage and misconceptions of the Constitution. If you can't argue my point, then go away!
Yes, dixie has argued that, like every freedom, there are restrictions and lines we can't cross. Our freedom doesn't infringe on the freedoms of others, and when that happens, some determination must be made as to who's freedom is most important. Now, I can easily find where people have the right to the religious expression of prayer, but I am having a hard time finding where people have the right to not hear someone else praying.
Dixie - In Memoriam
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The building doesn't have Constitutional rights. You wouldn't think I would have to point this out, but apparently that is where you seem to be stuck. We can deny Constitutional rights if they infringe on more important Constitutional rights of other people, not buildings. The reason I mentioned "non-denominational" prayer, is because a denominational prayer might infringe on the religious beliefs of someone voluntarily participating, therefore, infringing on their Constitutional rights to freedom of religion. That would be the only Constitutional issue regarding voluntary extracurricular prayer.
If its volentary why would it infrenge on the rights of those who are participating volentarily?
I never said a building had a Const. right. I said the building paid for by the government cannot be used to promote religen.
It can. Often new churches rent the schools on Sundays for just that purpose.
True, in some circumstances it can, you are correct. Not in teh circumstances Dixie was mentioning.
Dixie - In Memoriam
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In my scenario, the building would not be used to promote religion. It would merely be the location where people exercised their Constitutional right to religious expression. If it doesn't interfere with another person's Constitutional rights, you haven't presented an argument for why we should deny them the right outlined in the Constitution. If you can't come up with an argument for why this would infringe on someone's rights, you simply can't disallow it.
Oh, you can rant and rave about it, and make absurd claims that aren't found anywhere in the Constitution, like the right of a government building not being used for anything pertaining to a religious belief, but the Constitution just doesn't say that. This all goes back to your misinterpretation of the Constitution, I believe. You know, where you believe the Founding Fathers made the egregious grammatical error of stating "respecting the establishment of religion" instead of the more accurate "respecting religious establishments". I guess it had been a long day, and Jefferson just got careless with his grammar, but the most important Amendment of all, is written as it appears, and not as you wish it appeared.
So, every morning at the start of a Congressional day, the entire body of Congress breaks the law....? Is that what your saying ? Praying in a government paid for building....
Again...READ WHAT IS WRITTEN....
a denominational prayer might infringe on the religious beliefs
Not Constitutional rights....
Nope it is different when its dealing with adults instead of children.
Dixie - In Memoriam
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What specific circumstance did I mention? I think you mean the absurd and outrageous circumstances you've tried to claim I've made throughout this thread. I've not given many specifics, a teacher/adviser, not working in official capacity as a teacher, not part of the regular curriculum or daily activities of the school, voluntarily initiated and voluntary participation, non-denominational, and completely respective of everyone's Constitutional rights.
The specific scenario I am thinking of, would be like a meeting of the FCA (Fellowship of Christian Athletes), taking place in the gym after school... The SYATP (See You At The Pole) events organized at schools across America by students and parents, in direct observance of National Day of Prayer, which was designated by CONGRESS! Or even a prayer before a football game or graduation ceremony. I can't find a thing in the Constitution which gives the right not to hear someone else pray. Perhaps you have misinterpreted that as well?
So how would volentary prayer infringe on someones religious beliefs.
Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
Stop being ignorant. IF the prayer were Catholic, you don't see how that might infringe on the religious beliefs of a Baptist? This is why I said "non-denominational" because a "denominational" prayer may infringe on religious beliefs not of that denomination. I wasn't trying to establish any huge point with that, just recognizing the Constitutional rights of others, and trying to take that into consideration with my viewpoint. If the group happened to be the Student Baptist Leadership Council, perhaps a "non-denominational" prayer is not needed?
Congress begins each session with a non-denominational prayer... it's not denominational because that would show favoritism toward one specific denomination.... I can't believe I am actually having to explain this to an adult!
Really ? Show me where, exactly, does the First Amendment specifies age as a factor in getting free speech....?
What age does one need to achieve before acquiring free speech ?
How about this crap about government buildings....is that in the First Amendment too...?
And what "laws" is Congress making by all this, you know the part about "Congress shall make no law"....
I so nice to have a learned lawyer school us on the Constitution...