same old dick

Tabasco said:
I understand your perspective, but I have to disagree. I don't believe suspected terrorists are entitled to the same rights and privileges as American citizens. The first duty of our government is to protect Americans. That is why I am in favor of waterboarding, so long as it is done in a way that causes no permanent physical harm.
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You do understand that anyone, including Americans could be called a "suspected terrorist"?


So you are okay with torture as long as the government claims they suspect the tourturee to be a terrorist?
 
cawacko said:
Your real point is it was a failure not to use the tactic before we got attacked but is a failure to use the tactic since we have not been attacked again.
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No I am saying...

"He (BHO) is saying that and I dont like that tactict. Certantly he is so far using fear MUCH less than Bush/Cheney ever did, but its still a cheap and unbeneficial tactict.

I will say that using fear of economic trouble is nuthing compared to using fear of physical attack and possable death of oneself or ones loved ones."
 
Heres the thing you are not facing in this issue. Torture does not give you accuate intell. Its been said by every one of our experts.
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Here's the thing YOU'RE not facing in this issue... Waterboarding is not the same as strapping someone to a rack or shoving bamboo under the fingernails. It is uncomfortable, it is unpleasant, It is undesirable, but it is NOT torture. Chopping off hands and arms, the routine legal practice used in the Arab world to deter shoplifting, THAT is torture! Feeding people into wood chippers... TORTURE... Playing loud music and turning up the air conditioner... NOT TORTURE! Can you not see the difference?

As for the accuracy of the intel... Khalid Sheik Mohamed was waterboarded, and within 2 minutes, gave up crucial information which resulted in the direct apprehension of numerous terror cell leaders. No telling how many suicide bombings and terror attacks were averted, we will never know that, because they didn't happen. Ali Mohamed, another top level alQaeda member... cracked after only a minute and a half of waterboarding, revealing the names of people who knew where to find Al Zarqawi, who was subsequently killed, preventing no telling how many terror attacks, because again, they never happened. So when you say "torture doesn't work" that is one thing, but waterboarding did indeed provide useful intel, the proof is in the pudding.
 
Socrtease said:
You are aware, aren't you, that we prosecuted Japanese soldiers for having poured a bucket of water over US and Australian soldiers heads right? Tell you what, let me waterboard your grandmother while you watch and you tell me that there is nothing to it. I am tired of people like you shitting on the memories of American's that were tortured just like this because now it is in the name of our"national security".
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Its not a little thing that John McCain, a former POW who allegedly was tourtured in Vietnam is against waterboarding. He understands this issue...
 
Dixie said:
Here's the thing YOU'RE not facing in this issue... Waterboarding is not the same as strapping someone to a rack or shoving bamboo under the fingernails. It is uncomfortable, it is unpleasant, It is undesirable, but it is NOT torture. Chopping off hands and arms, the routine legal practice used in the Arab world to deter shoplifting, THAT is torture! Feeding people into wood chippers... TORTURE... Playing loud music and turning up the air conditioner... NOT TORTURE! Can you not see the difference?

As for the accuracy of the intel... Khalid Sheik Mohamed was waterboarded, and within 2 minutes, gave up crucial information which resulted in the direct apprehension of numerous terror cell leaders. No telling how many suicide bombings and terror attacks were averted, we will never know that, because they didn't happen. Ali Mohamed, another top level alQaeda member... cracked after only a minute and a half of waterboarding, revealing the names of people who knew where to find Al Zarqawi, who was subsequently killed, preventing no telling how many terror attacks, because again, they never happened. So when you say "torture doesn't work" that is one thing, but waterboarding did indeed provide useful intel, the proof is in the pudding.
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Flat out blatently FALSE.

Go explain to John McCain what tourture is!
 
Jarod said:
No I am saying...

"He (BHO) is saying that and I dont like that tactict. Certantly he is so far using fear MUCH less than Bush/Cheney ever did, but its still a cheap and unbeneficial tactict.

I will say that using fear of economic trouble is nuthing compared to using fear of physical attack and possable death of oneself or ones loved ones."
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I wasn't talking about Obama in my statement and its kind of hard to compare two weeks to eight years. What would the response had been pre 9/11 if Bush/Cheney came out and said bin Laden wants to attack us? I'm sure most people would say who is bin Laden? In hindsight we all wish Bush had said bin Laden wants to attack us because we know what happened. Going forward since there have been no successful attacks we view all warnings as false alarms.
 
cawacko said:
I wasn't talking about Obama in my statement and its kind of hard to compare two weeks to eight years. What would the response had been pre 9/11 if Bush/Cheney came out and said bin Laden wants to attack us? I'm sure most people would say who is bin Laden? In hindsight we all wish Bush had said bin Laden wants to attack us because we know what happened. Going forward since there have been no successful attacks we view all warnings as false alarms.
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I dont view all warnings as false alarms. I only view the ones that later show to have been based on what was known to be false information as a false alarm. I view those that came out at politically sensative times for the president and were later shown to be based on false info to have been false alarms.
 
Dixie said:
Here's the thing YOU'RE not facing in this issue... Waterboarding is not the same as strapping someone to a rack or shoving bamboo under the fingernails. It is uncomfortable, it is unpleasant, It is undesirable, but it is NOT torture. Chopping off hands and arms, the routine legal practice used in the Arab world to deter shoplifting, THAT is torture! Feeding people into wood chippers... TORTURE... Playing loud music and turning up the air conditioner... NOT TORTURE! Can you not see the difference?

As for the accuracy of the intel... Khalid Sheik Mohamed was waterboarded, and within 2 minutes, gave up crucial information which resulted in the direct apprehension of numerous terror cell leaders. No telling how many suicide bombings and terror attacks were averted, we will never know that, because they didn't happen. Ali Mohamed, another top level alQaeda member... cracked after only a minute and a half of waterboarding, revealing the names of people who knew where to find Al Zarqawi, who was subsequently killed, preventing no telling how many terror attacks, because again, they never happened. So when you say "torture doesn't work" that is one thing, but waterboarding did indeed provide useful intel, the proof is in the pudding.
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To connect these accomplishment to info found based on tourture is disingenous at best and a blatent lie at worst.
 
To connect these accomplishment to info found based on tourture is disingenous at best and a blatent lie at worst.
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Damn straight it's a blatant lie! Waterboarding isn't torture! The information Khalid Sheik Mohamed gave up, resulted in the apprehension of numerous cell leaders, that is not disputable, and he was being waterboarded at the time, that is not disputable. The information Ali Mohamed gave us, resulted in the finding and killing of Abu Zarqawi, that is not disputable, Ali was also strapped to a waterboard at the time, again, not disputable. What seems to be in dispute here, is whether waterboarding results in accurate intelligence, and the evidence suggest it certainly did in these cases. Another thing in dispute, is whether or not waterboarding is indeed "torture" and I don't believe it is, but I suppose it is a matter of opinion, the fact is, it worked.
 
Dixie said:
Damn straight it's a blatant lie! Waterboarding isn't torture! The information Khalid Sheik Mohamed gave up, resulted in the apprehension of numerous cell leaders, that is not disputable, and he was being waterboarded at the time, that is not disputable. The information Ali Mohamed gave us, resulted in the finding and killing of Abu Zarqawi, that is not disputable, Ali was also strapped to a waterboard at the time, again, not disputable. What seems to be in dispute here, is whether waterboarding results in accurate intelligence, and the evidence suggest it certainly did in these cases. Another thing in dispute, is whether or not waterboarding is indeed "torture" and I don't believe it is, but I suppose it is a matter of opinion, the fact is, it worked.
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Cite to substantuate your claims?
 
Jarod said:
I dont view all warnings as false alarms. I only view the ones that later show to have been based on what was known to be false information as a false alarm. I view those that came out at politically sensative times for the president and were later shown to be based on false info to have been false alarms.
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HUH??? Are you on heavy drugs or something? What you are saying, doesn't even make logical sense! No administration is so illogically stupid as to put out alarms based on known false information! What the fuck would be the point in doing that? Did information later prove to be faulty or inaccurate? Sure, but that is the inherent nature of ALL intelligence! You took that fact and twisted it into the pretzel of logic that they KNEW it was bad intel to begin with, and you've not presented ANY evidence of this, nor can you make a logical case for why in the hell anyone would do something so utterly illogical and stupid!

Here's the deal, idiot... you don't see inherent danger because Bush kept us safe from terror attacks for 8 years. It has prompted you to become so bold and brazen as to call it "boogey man" and pretend it is a false alarm! You are like the numskull idiots who were out roaming the beaches just before the Tsunami! Ooo... Look! The ocean went away.... wonder what that means? Let's go down there and look at it!! Woooow! You are totally clueless and oblivious to danger, you won't realize it until it's sawing off your ignorant head in your living room... then in your horror, you might realize how stupid you've been, but then it will be far too late.
 
Darla said:
I love your picture of the birds. The first time i saw it, I tilted my head to look at him, and then read what it said. It made me laugh.
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The best part of that picture is you can look at the other bird and see what looks like contempt in his eyes.
 
Jarod said:
Cite to substantuate your claims?
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Why? So you can pull the usual Liberal tactic of attacking sources and hurling insults at them? This comes from our own CIA reports! Why the fuck do you think we even KNOW about "waterboarding?" Go do some research on how we obtained info from Khalid Sheik Mohamed and Ali Mohamed, how we knew where to find Abu Zarqawi, and you will find what I have stated to be the truth. I don't need to play your little "cite" game.
 
Dixie said:
HUH??? Are you on heavy drugs or something? What you are saying, doesn't even make logical sense! No administration is so illogically stupid as to put out alarms based on known false information! What the fuck would be the point in doing that? Did information later prove to be faulty or inaccurate? Sure, but that is the inherent nature of ALL intelligence! You took that fact and twisted it into the pretzel of logic that they KNEW it was bad intel to begin with, and you've not presented ANY evidence of this, nor can you make a logical case for why in the hell anyone would do something so utterly illogical and stupid!

Here's the deal, idiot... you don't see inherent danger because Bush kept us safe from terror attacks for 8 years. It has prompted you to become so bold and brazen as to call it "boogey man" and pretend it is a false alarm! You are like the numskull idiots who were out roaming the beaches just before the Tsunami! Ooo... Look! The ocean went away.... wonder what that means? Let's go down there and look at it!! Woooow! You are totally clueless and oblivious to danger, you won't realize it until it's sawing off your ignorant head in your living room... then in your horror, you might realize how stupid you've been, but then it will be far too late.
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Dixie, you tell me why Tom Ridge resigned as Chief of the Department of Homeland Security...
 
Jarod said:
Dixie, you tell me why Tom Ridge resigned as Chief of the Department of Homeland Security...
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I don't know and don't care why Tom Ridge resigned. The DHS has nothing to do with interrogation of terrorist detainees at Gitmo. This was done by the CIA, a completely different agency of the government. Why can't you answer my question? Why do you have to switch the topic to Tom Ridge?

Please tell me why you can rationalize how an administration put out false warnings based on known false information? Did they think people were not smart enough to discover it was false information? You know, that may apply if we lived in ancient times, before information technology prevailed. It may apply for pre-WWII Europe under the Gestapo, where the only information available was the propaganda put out by the government. But it simply defies logic in the day and age we currently live. There is simply no basis in reality for what you are claiming.
 
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