Russia to annex Kherson Oblast

dukkha said:
well never know due to counter-productive arrogant NATO expansion.
But Putin and Lavrov went along with the Russian Reset. Until the Maidan
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We have evidence.

Putin said 30 years ago that it was a great tragedy that the republics of the USSR dissolved the union.

Putin has made public speeches for years saying it's a tragedy that Russian-speakers got trapped outside the borders of historic holy Russia.

Putin has openly said Ukraine is a fake country and compares himself to Peter the Great in unifying the East Slavic people under the banner of holy Russia.

That is what has been driving his desire to conquer Ukraine at least since 2014, and probably earlier.

If you want to claim that Putin invaded because he feared 30 independent sovereign nations of NATO would somehow collectively agree to invade Russia (a military superpower, and the graveyard of invaders for centuries), that is a truly extraordinary claim. And the burden is on you to prove it.
 
Cypress said:
We have evidence.

Putin said 30 years ago that it was a great tragedy that the republics of the USSR dissolved the union.

Putin has made public speeches for years saying it's a tragedy that Russian-speakers got trapped outside the borders of historic holy Russia.

Putin has openly said Ukraine is a fake country and compares himself to Peter the Great in unifying the East Slavic people under the banner of holy Russia.

That is what has been driving his desire to conquer Ukraine at least since 2014, and probably earlier.

If you want to claim that Putin invaded because he feared 30 independent sovereign nations of NATO would somehow collectively agree to invade Russia (a military superpower, and the graveyard of invaders for centuries), that is a truly extraordinary claim. And the burden is on you to prove it.
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It's why I believe NATO expansion was not arrogant. We'll never know if NATO expansion was a contributing factor to Putin's invasion of Ukraine but I strongly suspect he had designs on those former Soviet republics too, possibility starting with the smallest and farthest away from a NATO country.
Moldova is feeling quite nervous with Russian separatists in Transnistria.
 
anonymoose said:
It's why I believe NATO expansion was not arrogant. We'll never know if NATO expansion was a contributing factor to Putin's invasion of Ukraine but I strongly suspect he had designs on those former Soviet republics too, possibility starting with the smallest and farthest away from a NATO country.
Moldova is feeling quite nervous with Russian separatists in Transnistria.
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I think Putin is highly annoyed that Poland, Finland, Baltic states joined NATO. But his overriding concern for at least two decades is to unite the east Slavs under the leadership of Moscow.
 
Cypress said:
We have evidence.

Putin said 30 years ago that it was a great tragedy that the republics of the USSR dissolved the union.

Putin has made public speeches for years saying it's a tragedy that Russian-speakers got trapped outside the borders of historic holy Russia.

Putin has openly said Ukraine is a fake country and compares himself to Peter the Great in unifying the East Slavic people under the banner of holy Russia.

That is what has been driving his desire to conquer Ukraine at least since 2014, and probably earlier.

If you want to claim that Putin invaded because he feared 30 independent sovereign nations of NATO would somehow collectively agree to invade Russia (a military superpower, and the graveyard of invaders for centuries), that is a truly extraordinary claim. And the burden is on you to prove it.
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NATO expansion is an aggressive posture. It's like putting your chess pieces in opponents territory.
Placement and the number of pieces there constitute aggressive posture

Ukraine was ultimately going to get NATO membership. no question of if, just when
And NATO isn't sitting there passively - they ran warships at Crimea restricted waters
bombers along the Russia coast; in fact Lavrov specifically detailed a laundry list of "redlines"
hand delivered by Lavrov to Blinken. Blinken/Biden laughed them off as insignificant .
Putin obviously thought the were and went to war over NATO shenanigans and uber-expansion.
Ukraine was becoming a NATO outpost - intolerable to Russian security red lines
 
The NATO thing was just an excuse for Putin. He didn't really think NATO was going to allow Ukraine's fledgling imperfect democracy into NATO. Now all Putin has done is make Sweden and Norway join NATO.
 
ExpressLane said:
The NATO thing was just an excuse for Putin. He didn't really think NATO was going to allow Ukraine's fledgling imperfect democracy into NATO. Now all Putin has done is make Sweden and Norway join NATO.
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Another JPP telepathic idiot.


Haw, haw.......................haw.
 
anonymoose said:
It's why I believe NATO expansion was not arrogant. We'll never know if NATO expansion was a contributing factor to Putin's invasion of Ukraine but I strongly suspect he had designs on those former Soviet republics too, possibility starting with the smallest and farthest away from a NATO country.
Moldova is feeling quite nervous with Russian separatists in Transnistria.
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see my post 227 on why NATO expansion is "aggressive"

The Moldova border is closed, the 2500 Russian troops in Transnistria are not going after Moldova
Russia cant even take Kyiv..
 
dukkha said:
The Moldova border is closed, the 2500 Russian troops in Transnistria are not going after Moldova
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Transnistria is a Russian propped up attempt to break away from Moldova, so they already have gone after Moldova. Given their history with Ukraine, they will go after more, if possible. The Moldovans should be very grateful to the Ukrainians for stopping the Russians from getting a land bridge to Moldova, where they would be able to pour troops against Moldova.
 
Walt said:
Transnistria is a Russian propped up attempt to break away from Moldova, so they already have gone after Moldova. Given their history with Ukraine, they will go after more, if possible. The Moldovans should be very grateful to the Ukrainians for stopping the Russians from getting a land bridge to Moldova, where they would be able to pour troops against Moldova.
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no evidence Moldova is being "eyes by Putin" the possibility that Russia could use troops already have stationed in Transnistria for an incursion into Ukraine is ridiculous.. only about 1500 and they are locals with Russian passports for the most part..If Russia took Odessa..maybe but they cant really extend that far
ai2html-output-540-wide.jpg
 
Walt said:
The middle black dot is Odesa. Putin tried to take Odesa, but was pushed back in brutal fighting. Had he taken Odesa, he would have had a land bridge to reinforce Transnistria.
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I dont know of any "brutal fighting" from Russians being "pushed back" other then Russian missile strikes
 
dukkha said:
NATO expansion is an aggressive posture. It's like putting your chess pieces in opponents territory.
Placement and the number of pieces there constitute aggressive posture

Ukraine was ultimately going to get NATO membership. no question of if, just when
And NATO isn't sitting there passively - they ran warships at Crimea restricted waters
bombers along the Russia coast; in fact Lavrov specifically detailed a laundry list of "redlines"
hand delivered by Lavrov to Blinken. Blinken/Biden laughed them off as insignificant .
Putin obviously thought the were and went to war over NATO shenanigans and uber-expansion.
Ukraine was becoming a NATO outpost - intolerable to Russian security red lines
Click to expand...

You couldn't get 30 independent sovereign NATO countries to collectively agree to invade Russia. Utterly laughable.

NATO annoyed Putin because he believes he has a right to make Poland, Estonia, Ukraine, etc. vassal states because of the legacy of the Russian empire.

NATO never offered a NATO membership application to Ukraine, nor was such an offer on the horizon. Neither you nor Putin are in a position to guess what may or may not happen in 15 years, let alone use it as an excuse to commit War crimes.


Serbia did the exact same thing Putin is doing, during the Balkan wars of the 1990s. Milosevic attacked Croatia and Bosnia to "liberate" the ethnic Serbs living in those countries who had supposedly been unjustly trapped outside the borders of it greater Serbia.
 
Cypress said:
Serbia did the exact same thing Putin is doing, during the Balkan wars of the 1990s. Milosevic attacked Croatia and Bosnia to "liberate" the ethnic Serbs living in those countries who had supposedly been unjustly trapped outside the borders of it greater Serbia.
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The USA led a coup in Ukraine after which Ukrainian Nazis shelled the disenfranchised Ukrainians for eight years. I fail to see any similarities.
 
moon said:
The USA led a coup in Ukraine after which Ukrainian Nazis shelled the disenfranchised Ukrainians for eight years. I fail to see any similarities.
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Nope, just another excuse to provide cover for your war mongering.

I have repeatedly asked you and your MAGA boyfriends to provide links to reputable and legitimate news sources proving that the American government hatched, plotted, and executed a coup in Ukraine.

You MAGA dupes have never provided those links.
 
Cypress said:
Serbia did the exact same thing Putin is doing, during the Balkan wars of the 1990s. Milosevic attacked Croatia and Bosnia to "liberate" the ethnic Serbs living in those countries who had supposedly been unjustly trapped outside the borders of it greater Serbia.
Click to expand...

The USA led a coup in Ukraine after which Ukrainian Nazis shelled the disenfranchised Ukrainians for eight years. I fail to see any similarities.
 
United States involvement
In December 2013, Republican Senator John McCain in company with Democratic senator Chris Murphy visited Yatsenyuk and Tyahnybok and later addressed the crowds:

Ukraine will make Europe better and Europe will make Ukraine better, we are here to support your just cause, the sovereign right of Ukraine to determine its own destiny freely and independently. And the destiny you seek lies in Europe.

Speaking to CNN on the same day, McCain said:

What we're trying to do is try to bring about a peaceful transition here, that would stop the violence and give the Ukrainian people what they unfortunately have not had, with different revolutions that have taken place – a real society. This is a grassroots revolution here – it's been peaceful except when the government tried to crack down on them, and the government hasn't tried that since. I'm praising their ability and their desire to demonstrate peacefully for change that I think they deserve. [...] These people love the United States of America, they love freedom – and I don't think you could view this as anything other than our traditional support for people who want free and democratic society.[344]

In a recorded phone conversation leaked on 4 February, Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland and US Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt are heard discussing their wishes for a Ukraine transition to an interim government, and specifically, the roles in which they hoped to see the prominent opposition leaders:

Nuland: "I don't think Klitsch (Klitschko) should go into the government. I don't think it's necessary, I don't think it's a good idea."

Pyatt: "Just let him stay out and do his political homework and stuff."

Nuland: "I think Yats (Yatsenyuk) is the guy who's got the economic experience the governing experience. I just think Klitsch going in… he's going to be at that level working for Yatseniuk, it's just not going to work. We want to try to get somebody with an international personality to come out here and help to midwife this thing."[345]
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Tch, tch.
 
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