Russia, Nato and the return to cold war

Cypress said:
You haven't met any Ukrainians or Georgians, have you? I have. I have relatives in Belarus, Russia, and Ukraine, and have visited and travelled there.
Yes, in principle Putin would like to reconstitute the old Russian empire in some form or other.
There are many Ukrainians and Belarusians who would take offense at your implication that they are culturally Russian and belong in Russia's sphere of influence. A Georgian might actually punch you in the face for suggesting they submit to the Russians.

Hitler also thought it was his right to unite the "Germanic" peoples of Scandinavia and central Europe under German domination. It is an old argument we have seen before, an argument used to justify hegemony and empire.

It is fair to say that these east Slavic nations have some shared history with Russia, and that there are ethnic Russian speaking minorities who have some sympathy for Russia. I certainly saw a lot of those types in Belarus. But to support armed insurrection and military aggression against your neighbors, as Russia did in Ukraine and Georgia? Is that something you are seriously going to defend/excuse/gloss over?
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Nope, but what is the US's interest in it?

And assuming we have one, where was Obama for 8 years? Eight years was ample time to reign in Putin but he was too busy leading from behind.

He sort of left this for Trump to deal with.

With that out of the way, this country needs to decide which hill [or hills] it wants to die on, in geopolitical terms. I don't want to go to war with Putin over Georgia or Crimea. John McCain might, but he's lost his marbles. It's kind of assinine to even consider it. These people aren't long standing allies---they are culturally similar to Russia in some respects, as you yourself conceded.

Now, if Putin were to move on Western Europe, that changes things. But Putin has no designs on France or Germany.

The geopolitical situation in the region is crying out for realpolitik diplomatic solutions that put US interests first.
 
Cypress said:
Never heard of this "John Green" from London, and do not find his arguments and writing compelling in any way.

The premise that the US belligerently "encircled" Russia post-Yeltsin sounds like Kremlin propaganda to me. Nobody put a gun to the heads of Poland, Lithuania, Hungary, et al to force them to join NATO. Those countries, and their citizens overwhelmingly wanted to join NATO of their own free will. If Russia would ever adopt democratic institutions, and meet membership criteria for NATO, I would have no problem having them joining NATO either. I am a big fan of vodka!

As for the military industrial complex, I don't think "John Green" in London is in a position to lecture liberals on the dangers of militarism and hegemony. There are a lot of former Iraq War supporters - like Donald Drumpf - who minions belatedly endeavor to position him as the champion of east-wet détente. Laughable when you really think about it. Drumpf is on record advocating a nuclear arms race.

As far as Europe is concerned, there is a well established Record of one country acting belligerently, aggressive, and militaristic towards its European neighbors. I suggest "John Green" review what Russia has done in Georgia, Chechnya, Crimea, and Ukraine.
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Hi guy! So good to see you again! It's been way too long.
 
Darth Omar said:
Those former Soviet satellites aren't in NATO.

Putin is a 'good' dictator in realpolitik terms: he's not insane and can be reasoned with: though, like all dictators, he can be slippery. It would be insane for Russia to make a move on NATO. It would be the end of Russia.

In contrast, the little NK dictator is insane, literally. We should be thankful he's not in the Kremlin, because it would totally change the calculus in Europe.

The realpolitik question is how much is it worth to us to keep Putin from threatening the former Soviet Satellites? Isn't radical Islam our first concern? To my knowledge, Russia hasn't attacked us, they weren't behind 9/11 and they have no plans, that anyone is aware of, of attacking us and starting WWIII.

That would be insane and Putin isn't insane.
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A "good" (benevolent?) dictator wouldn't have opposition journalists killed.
 
Darth Omar said:
Nope, but what is the US's interest in it?

And assuming we have one, where was Obama for 8 years? Eight years was ample time to reign in Putin but he was too busy leading from behind.

He sort of left this for Trump to deal with.

With that out of the way, this country needs to decide which hill [or hills] it wants to die on, in geopolitical terms. I don't want to go to war with Putin over Georgia or Crimea. John McCain might, but he's lost his marbles. It's kind of assinine to even consider it. These people aren't long standing allies---they are culturally similar to Russia in some respects, as you yourself conceded.

Now, if Putin were to move on Western Europe, that changes things. But Putin has no designs on France or Germany.

The geopolitical situation in the region is crying out for realpolitik diplomatic solutions that put US interests first.
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well thought out..
but McCain is a warhawk not actually wanting a war with Russia, just hawking it for his own twisted needs.
 
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