Republicans should turn the worm on Democrats...

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Dixie - In Memoriam

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Okay... you know how the democrats have been floating this idea that Obama can raise the debt ceiling all by himself, without Congress, by using the 14th Amendment to the Constitution? Personally, I think it's a bluff, they simply want to scare Republicans into going along with them on tax increases, and the White House has no intention of invoking executive powers here, which would raise major Constitutional issues and would certainly be challenged.

But here is what Republicans should do to turn around and smack these idiots in their stupid heads with their own rhetoric.... refuse to raise the debt ceiling... then insist that our debts be paid before ANY other government spending, because it says so in the 14th!

14th Amendment
Sec. 4
The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned.

Now that we've settled the fact that we MUST pay our debts without question, we can focus on what cuts need to be made in spending, in order to facilitate the payment of our debts.
 
Dixie said:
Okay... you know how the democrats have been floating this idea that Obama can raise the debt ceiling all by himself, without Congress, by using the 14th Amendment to the Constitution? Personally, I think it's a bluff, they simply want to scare Republicans into going along with them on tax increases, and the White House has no intention of invoking executive powers here, which would raise major Constitutional issues and would certainly be challenged.

But here is what Republicans should do to turn around and smack these idiots in their stupid heads with their own rhetoric.... refuse to raise the debt ceiling... then insist that our debts be paid before ANY other government spending, because it says so in the 14th!

14th Amendment
Sec. 4
The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned.

Now that we've settled the fact that we MUST pay our debts without question, we can focus on what cuts need to be made in spending, in order to facilitate the payment of our debts.
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That's fucking stupid. If the debts are not paid, it does not mean their validity is in question, it just means that they haven't been paid and the United States is in default. The 14th does not require the debts of the United States have to be paid in a timely manner, it just means that debts incurred by the United States are enforceable against it.
 
The Dude said:
how is that not hypocritical if Republicans raised the debt ceiling 7X under Bush?
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First of all, Republicans didn't do anything, Congress did. Republicans have NEVER been able to do anything without bipartisan support. But we're not talking about what has been done in the past, we all understand the actions of the past aren't always the best idea for the future. You simply can't use "the past" as justification for continuing something that is wrong. Heck, if you could do that, we'd still have segregated schools... hell, we'd still have slavery, for that matter. Was it "hypocritical" for Congress to outlaw slavery, after years and years of condoning and supporting it?
 
More than likely the clause was meant to indicate that the newly reconstructed southern states couldn't refuse to pay the north back after we kicked their ass in the war. Since that whole "putting down insurrection and rebellion" thing is in there, it's pretty specific.
 
Sterling Archer said:
More than likely the clause was meant to indicate that the newly reconstructed southern states couldn't refuse to pay the north back after we kicked their ass in the war. Since that whole "putting down insurrection and rebellion" thing is in there, it's pretty specific.
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Nice dodge. Where's that list of GOP Senators and Congresspersons who were voted out in 2006?
 
David St. Hubbins said:
That's fucking stupid. If the debts are not paid, it does not mean their validity is in question, it just means that they haven't been paid and the United States is in default. The 14th does not require the debts of the United States have to be paid in a timely manner, it just means that debts incurred by the United States are enforceable against it.
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To ignore the debt is the same as questioning the validity of the debt. That is precisely why they wrote this into the 14th Amendment. No, it doesn't say the debts have to be paid in a timely manner, but it does say the validity of the debt can't be questioned. If we owe the debt, we have to pay the debt, and if we don't have the money to pay the debt AND pay for all the shit Democrats have heaped onto government to pay for... well, the debt comes first, because we can't question its validity. We CAN question the validity of the other spending, and that is what we would have to do, if we didn't raise the debt ceiling. We wouldn't default... Constitutionally, we CAN'T default!
 
thanks for the education fellas,

I'm for deep cuts accross the board and zero tax increases (even the loophole closure tax increases).
 
The May 2003 debt limit increase passed the Senate the same day as the $350 billion Bush tax cuts for the wealthy.



When Bush was in office, the current Republican leaders viewed increasing the debt limit as vital to keeping America’s economy running.
 
Sterling Archer said:
More than likely the clause was meant to indicate that the newly reconstructed southern states couldn't refuse to pay the north back after we kicked their ass in the war. Since that whole "putting down insurrection and rebellion" thing is in there, it's pretty specific.
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Well, it was also the cost of Reconstruction. Southern states were a bit disconcerted about having to pay for rebuilding their own infrastructures through taxation, since they didn't cause the destruction in the first place. But Democrats have attached themselves to this particular amendment and apply their own interpretations, in order to circumvent Congress on raising the debt ceiling. I just thought it would be brilliant if Republicans refused to raise the debt ceiling, then used the very same amendment and argument, to force discretionary spending cuts in order to pay our debts. If the Democrats can find interpretive meaning in the 14th, so can the Republicans.
 
Republican Congressional leaders are now preparing to push America to the edge of default by refusing to increase the nation’s debt limit without first getting Democrats to concede to large spending cuts.



But while the four Republicans in Congressional leadership positions are attempting to hold the increase hostage now, they combined to vote for a debt limit increase during the presidency of George W. Bush.



At the beginning of the Bush presidency, the United States debt limit was $5.95 trillion.


Despite promises that he would pay off the debt in 10 years, Bush increased the debt to $9.815 trillion by the end of his term, with plenty of help from the four Republicans currently holding Congressional leadership positions: Speaker John Boehner, House Majority Leader Eric Cantor, Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, and Senate Minority Whip Jon Kyl.



June 2002: Congress approves a $450 billion increase, raising the debt limit to $6.4 trillion. McConnell, Boehner, and Cantor vote “yea”, Kyl votes “nay.”

May 2003: Congress approves a $900 billion increase, raising the debt limit to $7.384 trillion. All four approve.

November 2004: Congress approves an $800 billion increase, raising the debt limit to $8.1 trillion. All four approve.

March 2006: Congress approves a $781 billion increase, raising the debt limit to $8.965 trillion. All four approve.

September 2007: Congress approves an $850 billion increase, raising the debt limit to $9.815 trillion. All four approve.



Database searches revealed no demands from the four legislators that debt increases come accompanied by drastic spending cuts, as there are now.












http://suzieqq.wordpress.com/2011/04/14/current-gop-leaders-voted-19-times-to-increase-debt-limit-by-4-trillion-during-bush-presidency/
 
Dixie said:
To ignore the debt is the same as questioning the validity of the debt. That is precisely why they wrote this into the 14th Amendment. No, it doesn't say the debts have to be paid in a timely manner, but it does say the validity of the debt can't be questioned. If we owe the debt, we have to pay the debt, and if we don't have the money to pay the debt AND pay for all the shit Democrats have heaped onto government to pay for... well, the debt comes first, because we can't question its validity. We CAN question the validity of the other spending, and that is what we would have to do, if we didn't raise the debt ceiling. We wouldn't default... Constitutionally, we CAN'T default!
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Not paying a debt does not call the validity of the debt into question. You're entire argument rests on a flawed premise.
 
Sterling Archer said:
More than likely the clause was meant to indicate that the newly reconstructed southern states couldn't refuse to pay the north back after we kicked their ass in the war. Since that whole "putting down insurrection and rebellion" thing is in there, it's pretty specific.
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That was the specific purpose of the "including . . ." language, but the breadth of the 14th Amendment is not limited to the specific items mentioned. Here's a decent history of section 4 of the 14th Amendment:

http://balkin.blogspot.com/2011/06/legislative-history-of-section-four-of.html


In short, it's purpose was to remove threats of default from partisan shit-slinging such as we have today.
 
wouldn't twisting the 14th Amendment around to allow the president to increase our total debt be considered using the words of the dead as a weapon against the living?
 
In short, it's purpose was to remove threats of default from partisan shit-slinging such as we have today.
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Like the partisan shit-slinging currently being conducted by liberal democrats?

You don't hear a single Republican saying we are going to default on our debt. That line is coming from Democrats who don't want to cut spending. Like I said, Republicans should smack them in the mouth with their very arguments on the 14th, and INSIST we pay our debts and cut spending elsewhere in order to do it. We aren't going to default, we can't default, if the Constitution is followed.
 
Dixie said:
....You don't hear a single Republican saying we are going to default on our debt...
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Looks like Dix-lie just pwned himself again.


Republicans including Tim Pawlenty, the former Minnesota governor who announced his presidential candidacy last month, are backing a short-term default if it leads to deep, immediate spending cuts.




Jeff Sessions and Paul Ryan, the top Republicans on the Senate and House Budget Committees, have also said failure to raise the debt limit would not trigger immediate catastrophe.




Republican Senator Pat Toomey has even introduced legislation directing the Treasury to prioritize debt service over other payments if the debt limit is not raised. It has 22 Republican co-sponsors in the Senate and 98 in the House of Representatives...






Paul Ryan said last month that holders of government debt would be willing to miss payments "for a day or two or three or four"....that's what I'm hearing from most people," Ryan, the author of the House Republicans' budget plan, told CNBC.





















http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/08/us-usa-debt-skepticism-idUSTRE75700720110608
 
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