Republican war on science

Milagro said:
Don't make me laugh, WOTUS was a classic case of empire building. I know that you'll never see that as you're part of the empire. The EPA was turning into the federal version of Greenpeace and that is why its wings needing clipping.

"The Justice Department indictments generated global applause. Now the DOJ needs to conduct an equally zealous investigation into corruption, fraud and collusion in the Obama Environmental Protection Agency. Of course, that will never happen – no matter how rampant or flagrant the abuses have been.

As Kimberly Strassel documents in May 14 and May 21 articles, EPA emails and other documents reveal that the agency had already decided in 2010 to veto the proposed Pebble Mine in Alaska on ideological grounds, “well before it did any science” on the project’s potential environmental impacts. Meanwhile, an EPA biologist was working with eco-activists to recruit Native Americans to oppose the mine. “It’s not much of a leap,” Strassel writes, “to suggest that the EPA encouraged [petitions against the mine] so that it would have an excuse to intervene, run its science as cover, and block a project it already opposed.”

At the same time the biologist was aiding the petition drive, he was also helping to write EPA’s “options paper” for the mine – and lobbying his co-authors and report contributors to veto the mine, Strassel notes. Now, contrary to newly discovered agency emails, EPA bosses are pretending they never saw the options paper and trying to put the blame on low-level functionaries, when they were deep in cahoots all the way.

This represents incredible collusion, deception, fraud and abuse of power – to impose agency edicts and appease environmental ideologues in and out of EPA. Moreover, it is just the latest in a long line of abuses and usurpations by this Obama agency, under a culture of corruption and secretive, manipulated science used to justify regulatory overkill that imposes extensive damages for few or no benefits.

On climate, EPA relies on computer models and discredited IPCC reports to predict global catastrophes that it insists can be prevented if the United States slashes its fossil fuel use, carbon dioxide emissions and living standards, even if China, India and other developing countries do nothing. Meanwhile, real-world temperatures, hurricanes, tornadoes, polar ice and sea levels continue to defy the fear-mongering. So now the rhetoric has shifted yet again, to alleged national security and asthma threats from climate change.

Just this week, EPA announced that it will henceforth regulate any ponds, puddles, creeks, ditches and other waters that have a “significant nexus” to navigable waterways, even if that ill-defined connection enjoys six degrees of separation from streams in which you can actually paddle a kayak. EPA itself recognizes that “science” does not support its new regime, so now it says its “experience and expertise” justify regulating virtually all “waters of the United States” (WOTUS) – and thus of all lands, land uses, and family, farm and industrial activities not already covered by its climate and other rules.

Homeowners, farmers and businesses will now have to apply for permits to do almost anything that might theoretically pollute or affect waterways. Even taking a shower is now subject to EPA regulation."

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2015/05/30/curbing-epa-abuses/

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Tom you just are simply out in lala land. As long as a pollutant can transmigrate from a point source, particularly across State lines, then the US EPA has Federal powers to regulate such point source pollution under the Interstate Commerce Clause of the U.S. constitution.
 
domer76 said:
Great. He's full of shit.
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His bio sketch says pretty well demonstrates exactly what he's all about. One thing it does not appear that he is, and that's a climate scientist. But he is a hired gun for a laissez faire M or L street type think tank. He clearly had sympathies or a job on the other side of the table and through age or money, developed the opinion ecology lobby types were too militant. That is hardly an argument against global warming, and as stated, he ain't the guy to convincingly make such an argument, just like Milagro.
 
Micawber said:
Brings to mind Missouri v Holland.
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Exactly and when State laws contradict Federal laws based on constitutionally enumerated powers of the Federal Government then the Federal laws have supremacy.

Having said that President Trump is within his rights as POTUS to reverse WOTUS regulations or enforcement and that would not be considered Federal or Executive over reach either.

The point being, however, WOTUS is/was in no way Federal over reach.
 
Micawber said:
His bio sketch says pretty well demonstrates exactly what he's all about. One thing it does not appear that he is, and that's a climate scientist. But he is a hired gun for a laissez faire M or L street type think tank. He clearly had sympathies or a job on the other side of the table and through age or money, developed the opinion ecology lobby types were too militant. That is hardly an argument against global warming, and as stated, he ain't the guy to convincingly make such an argument, just like Milagro.
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Yup...Tobacco company science.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
You might be waiting a while for that answer.
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Of course, that's why I asked. But now he will be compelled to write some gobbledygook legalese jailhouse state's rights tenth amendment jurisprudence hatched in the Nazi wing of a state pen perverting some 19th century cae that's been westlaw treated negatively 4000 times. It's how they roll.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
Tom you just are simply out in lala land. As long as a pollutant can transmigrate from a point source, particularly across State lines, then the US EPA has Federal powers to regulate such point source pollution under the Interstate Commerce Clause of the U.S. constitution.
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Then why did they want to pass WOTUS then, answer me that? They already had the Clean Water Act 1972 which regulated all navigable waters. I don't really care that much but you lot should as it would have meant any farm with a runoff or drainage requiring licences which no doubt wouldn't be free.

You'd soon start moaning when food prices went up as a consequence. I say I don't care but our penpushers could very well have got some ideas and tried to do the same over here, then I'd care.

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Milagro said:
Then why did they want to pass WOTUS then, answer me that? They already had the Clean Water Act 1972 which regulated all navigable waters. I don't really care that much but you lot should as it would have meant any farm with a runoff or drainage requiring licences which no doubt wouldn't be free.

You'd soon start moaning when food prices went up as a consequence. I say I don't care but our penpushers could very well have got some ideas and tried to do the same over here, then I'd care.

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well that's it -the over-reach. ephemeral streams and pond waters are prt of the EPA's purview?? That was nutz.
Traditionally interstate waterways are federal -intrastate are regulated by the state.

The states can ask for help, or if things get too bad the EPA can step in.
But NOT just power grab like WOTUS-that's an abomination to balance of powers
 
anatta said:
well that's it -the over-reach. ephemeral streams and pond waters are prt of the EPA's purview?? That was nutz.
Traditionally interstate waterways are federal -intrastate are regulated by the state.

The states can ask for help, or if things get too bad the EPA can step in.
But NOT just power grab like WOTUS-that's an abomination to balance of powers
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Tell that to Mott, he just loves federal bureaucracy.

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Its simple....If "man made global warming" and the supposed ability of man to control earth's carbon footprint were REAL SCIENCE, there would be no debate possible. All you left wing nerds and self pronounced god's need do is PROVE IT via the scientific method of Objective, Testable, Repeatable, evidences. Again......the reality is the demonstrable truth that anyone who promotes the ideology/theory/....claims that a "consensus" establishes scientific truth is engaging in "Pseudo Science"....a philosophy based upon opinions and conjecture with no real evidence to prove that man can somehow control climate change...i.e., THE WEATHER patterns that have historically changed the climate since the earth was created.

Real Science does not attempt to stop investigation and challenges to any theory.....it embraces the challenge. Man Made Global Warming is nothing but a political position used to con the public into assimilating into a left wing political mold.
 
Ralph said:
Its simple....If "man made global warming" and the supposed ability of man to control earth's carbon footprint were REAL SCIENCE, there would be no debate possible. All you left wing nerds and self pronounced god's need do is PROVE IT via the scientific method of Objective, Testable, Repeatable, evidences. Again......the reality is the demonstrable truth that anyone who promotes the ideology/theory/....claims that a "consensus" establishes scientific truth is engaging in "Pseudo Science"....a philosophy based upon opinions and conjecture with no real evidence to prove that man can somehow control climate change...i.e., THE WEATHER patterns that have historically changed the climate since the earth was created.
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When you stay away from religiousity you often as not make sense.

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Milagro said:
When you stay away from religiousity you often as not make sense.

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How can one stay away from the truth? :) Have you ever considered the possibility that the reason RELIGION does not make sense is due to a lack on your part in not comprehending the simple truth that has existed for over 3500 years? Of course if you are not versed in the study and comprehension of the Word of God....it will never make sense to anyone that serves man instead of accepting the reality that there is a superior creating force to everything physical. The message from the Creator is one of a spiritual nature.

I once lacked faith until I attempted to use my knowledge and education to prove that God does not exist....with every test, I begin to realize that it was "I" that was lacking in truth and honesty. I spent the first part of my life "playing cowboy" in order to hide from the true heritage passed down to me from my Grandfather......Native American.
 
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Mott the Hoople said:
Yup...Tobacco company science.
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I notice Mott that you never ever address the science choosing instead to fall back on tired old canards instead. Science is not politics, it is not PC and most importantly the results are reproducible and falsifiable. How can anybody have faith in climate scientists who won't reveal their data, methods or indeed the assumptions made in their climate models? Don't try to act as if you're somehow superior because you're not, my mate the professor acted the same way initially until he opened his eyes and learnt to be a scientist again.

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Ralph said:
How can one stay away from the truth? :) Have you ever considered the possibility that the reason RELIGION does not make sense is due to a lack on your part in not comprehending the simple truth that has existed for over 3500 years? Of course if you are not versed in the study and comprehension of the Word of God....it will never make sense to anyone that serves man instead of accepting the reality that there is a superior creating force to everything physical. The message from the Creator is one of a spiritual nature.

I once lacked faith until I attempted to use my knowledge and education to prove that God does not exist....with every test, I begin to realize that it was "I" that was lacking in truth and honesty. I spent the first part of my life "playing cowboy" in order to hide from the true heritage passed down to me from my Grandfather......Native American.
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This is a science thread or at least it is supposed to be. Politics and religion should stay away.

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Milagro said:
I notice Mott that you never ever address the science choosing instead to fall back on tired old canards instead. Science is not politics, it is not PC and most importantly the results are reproducible and falsifiable. How can anybody have faith in climate scientists who won't reveal their data, methods or indeed the assumptions made in their climate models? Don't try to act as if you're somehow superior because you're not, my mate the professor acted the same way initially until he opened his eyes and learnt to be a scientist again.

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"A smart guy was convinced by me.":palm:
 
Milagro said:
I notice Mott that you never ever address the science choosing instead to fall back on tired old canards instead. Science is not politics, it is not PC and most importantly the results are reproducible and falsifiable. How can anybody have faith in climate scientists who won't reveal their data, methods or indeed the assumptions made in their climate models? Don't try to act as if you're somehow superior because you're not, my mate the professor acted the same way initially until he opened his eyes and learnt to be a scientist again.

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Well what do you expect when you provide documentation from such non-credible sources Tom? If I'm going to site you data or research on a scientific topic I'm probably going to use a peer reviewed source and Not a source that's primary purpose is advocacy.
 
Milagro said:
Then why did they want to pass WOTUS then, answer me that? They already had the Clean Water Act 1972 which regulated all navigable waters. I don't really care that much but you lot should as it would have meant any farm with a runoff or drainage requiring licences which no doubt wouldn't be free.

You'd soon start moaning when food prices went up as a consequence. I say I don't care but our penpushers could very well have got some ideas and tried to do the same over here, then I'd care.

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That's not the point. I would imagine their motive was to protect the environment. The point is that the claim that WOTUS is/was Federal over reach is simply not true.
 
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