Real Middle-Income Tax Relief

Tabasco said:
If tax rates have no impact on the economy, why not raise taxes to 90 percent? That is the logical conclusion of what liberals propose.
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That's a strawman argument.

First. We have to live with in our means. If we, as a society, are going to provide for the level of government services then we have to pay for them. Borrow and spend it even more grossly irresponsible than tax and spend. If you don't want to pay for those programs and services, fine, you take the political hit on killing those programs and services and don't come whining to me when it's a program you value that gets the axe.

Second, regressive taxation schemes are completely unfair to all but the very wealthiest of income earners. Flat taxes, VATs, Sin Taxes, Sales Taxes, all those regressive schemes are methods of shifting the burden of taxes, unfairly, from the wealthiest, who enjoy the most benefit of government services, to the middle class who can least afford to pay them. Progressive taxation is the only fair form of taxation.
 
wilton said:
I don't think the current or the former leaders of the federal government really care about running a public debt, recession or not. They're going to do it either way. The current leaders most certainly don't care how large it gets.

Also, as bank deposits goes up so does the amount of money banks are capable of loaning. BAM, look at that, more credit in a market that's having a credit crisis.

I also think that this money would be more effective if you DON'T run it through the largest bureaucracy on the planet, let alone the fact that its our money first anyway.
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Fine, then have the politicans who represent you stand up and tell us exactly which Federal Programs they are going to kill in order to save money and reduce the deficit to a surplus so that we can justify progressive tax cuts.

Until conservative politicians have the political courage to do that they are either blowing smoke up your ass or are being incredibly irresponsible or both. Probably both.
 
wilton said:
Are you contending that capital gains taxes don't have a discouraging effect on investments? Really?
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Sure an excessive capital gains tax would but have you thought out the consequences of eliminating it? Do you understand the socioeconomic consequences and how profoundly unfair that would be?

Capital gains is income and should be taxed as such, progressively. It's only fair.
 
Mottleydude said:
Fine, then have the politicans who represent you stand up and tell us exactly which Federal Programs they are going to kill in order to save money and reduce the deficit to a surplus so that we can justify progressive tax cuts.

Until conservative politicians have the political courage to do that they are either blowing smoke up your ass or are being incredibly irresponsible or both. Probably both.
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I don't know that Gingrich is blowing smoke up anybody's ass. He always stood for smaller government. Although, there are plenty of Republicans who say they are for smaller government but don't govern that way. Bush comes to mind.
 
wilton said:
I don't know that Gingrich is blowing smoke up anybody's ass. He always stood for smaller government. Although, there are plenty of Republicans who say they are for smaller government but don't govern that way. Bush comes to mind.
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So is Gingrich. Remember, he was Speaker of the House and presided over congress during a large increase in the size of government? Remember that he also opposed PAYGO? Just goes to show you that conservative politicians like ole Newt would sell his Momma down the river for a tax cut as Republicans have never viewed PAYGO as a reduction in Government but as a proxy tax hike. Can you say "Hipocrit"?
 
Mottleydude said:
Sure an excessive capital gains tax would but have you thought out the consequences of eliminating it? Do you understand the socioeconomic consequences and how profoundly unfair that would be?

Capital gains is income and should be taxed as such, progressively. It's only fair.
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Any capital gains tax has a discouraging effect. If we are going to compete with countries like China and India for foreign investment we need to make it more profitable for them to invest in the U.S. We are already at a disadvantage since their economies have way more room to grow than ours. Before the downturn, China's GDP growth was incredible for I don't know for how long.

More investment leads to economic growth which leads to job growth. Fuck what you think is fair, let's make America competitive.
 
Mottleydude said:
Fine, then have the politicans who represent you stand up and tell us exactly which Federal Programs they are going to kill in order to save money and reduce the deficit to a surplus so that we can justify progressive tax cuts.

Until conservative politicians have the political courage to do that they are either blowing smoke up your ass or are being incredibly irresponsible or both. Probably both.
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How about we just demand that they clean up all the wasteful spending in the programs?
 
wilton said:
Any capital gains tax has a discouraging effect. If we are going to compete with countries like China and India for foreign investment we need to make it more profitable for them to invest in the U.S. We are already at a disadvantage since their economies have way more room to grow than ours. Before the downturn, China's GDP growth was incredible for I don't know for how long.

More investment leads to economic growth which leads to job growth. Fuck what you think is fair, let's make America competitive.
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Oh, I see. So what you are saying is that invested income is more important to society than productive income is? That those who generate their income from investment are more important to society then people who produce wealth through manufacturing and services? That investors are more important to society than engineers, surgeons, manufacturers, laborers, technical service providers, teachers, scientist, nurses etc?

Please explain to me, why are investors more important then the rest of society? Why do they get a break on paying taxes where the rest of us working schmucks have to pay them? Please explain to me how derived income is more valuable to society than productive income? What makes those who derive their incomes from investment more valuable then those of us who have to earn ours through our productive efforts?

Is it fair that some trust fund baby like the Kennedy, Bush or Gates kids, who derive their income from invested income would not ever have to pay any income taxes, since their income would be investment income and only taxed as capital gains presently, which you would eliminate.

Please explain how this is right, fair and would make us more competitive?
 
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Mottleydude said:
Oh, I see. So what you are saying is that invested income is more important to society than productive income is? That those who generate their income from investment are more important to society then people who produce wealth through manufacturing and services? That investors are more important to society than engineers, surgeons, manufacturers, laborers, technical service providers, teachers, scientist, nurses etc?

Please explain to me, why are investors more important then the rest of society? Why do they get a break on paying taxes where the rest of us working schmucks have to pay them? Please explain to me how derived income is more valuable to society than productive income? What makes those who derive their incomes from investment more valuable then those of us who have to earn ours through our productive efforts?

Is it fair that some trust fund baby like the Kennedy, Bush or Gates kids, who derive their income from invested income would not ever have to pay any income taxes, since their income would be investment income and only taxed as capital gains presently, which you would eliminate.

Please explain how this is right, fair and would make us more competitive?
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The olde line that only the Fords and Rockefellers invest? Not everyone is a surgeon, manufacturer, laborer, technical service provider, teacher, scientist, nurse, etc., but all of those people can invest in the market. Especially since they want to develop good nest eggs to retire on.
 
Mottleydude said:
Oh, I see. So what you are saying is that invested income is more important to society than productive income is? That those who generate their income from investment are more important to society then people who produce wealth through manufacturing and services? That investors are more important to society than engineers, surgeons, manufacturers, laborers, technical service providers, teachers, nurses etc?
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In order to grow the economy we need investments. We need to make it more attractive to invest in this country. I don't know how many other ways I can say this.

Just because you're a teacher doesn't mean you're not an investor. Just because you're a laborer doesn't mean you're not an investor. I worked at a tire factory one summer and they offered me a 401k. 50% of Americans are invested in financial markets. These things aren't mutually exclusive.
 
Mottleydude said:
Is it fair that some trust fund baby like the Kennedy, Bush or Gates kids, who derive their income from invested income would not ever have to pay any income taxes, since their income would be investment income and only taxed as capital gains presently, which you would eliminate?
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This right here is a perfect example of the left instigating class warfare. This is a distraction from the real issue.
 
Threedee said:
The olde line that only the Fords and Rockefellers invest? Not everyone is a surgeon, manufacturer, laborer, technical service provider, teacher, scientist, nurse, etc., but all of those people can invest in the market. Especially since they want to develop good nest eggs to retire on.
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You evaded my question. Why is derived income of more value to society then productive income?
 
wilton said:
In order to grow the economy we need investments. We need to make it more attractive to invest in this country. I don't know how many other ways I can say this.

Just because you're a teacher doesn't mean you're not an investor. Just because you're a laborer doesn't mean you're not an investor. I worked at a tire factory one summer and they offered me a 401k. 50% of Americans are invested in financial markets. These things aren't mutually exclusive.
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Investment is only part of the equation. Investment is vital but useless with out the productive efforts of those who convert capital into goods and services. You can't have one with out the other. Why do you think foreigners want to invest in our companies? It's because of the quality of our products and services.

What you are saying is that derived income is more valuable than productive income and therefore should not be taxed. That's just plain bullshit. It's income, period and should be taxed as such.
 
wilton said:
This right here is a perfect example of the left instigating class warfare. This is a distraction from the real issue.
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Where did you get the idea I'm on the left on this? I'm just protecting my best economic interest from what is an incredibly bad idea.

Don't you think you're being rather hipocritical to arbitrarily eliminate taxes for one group of people and accusing those who point out it's intrinsic unfairness as instigating class warfare? You've got it ass backwards. Eliminating capital gains tax is instigating class warfare.

What you're not getting is that income is income is income no matter how you've gotten it and to decide, arbitrarily, that is of more value then other forms of income is not only unfair, it is asinine.
 
Mottleydude said:
Investment is only part of the equation. Investment is vital but useless with out the productive efforts of those who convert capital into goods and services. You can't have one with out the other. Why do you think foreigners want to invest in our companies? It's because of the quality of our products and services.
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Yeah, no shit. We need people to work. Eliminating the capital gains tax isn't going to make people quit their jobs. It will however will make them more likely to invest their money from that job into the markets.

The quality of our products does encourage investment. Our regulatory environment encourages investment. Eliminating the capital gains tax WILL encourage investment.

What you are saying is that derived income is more valuable than productive income and therefore should not be taxed. That's just plain bullshit. It's income, period and should be taxed as such.
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Nope, that's what your saying. I never said that.
 
wilton said:
Yeah, no shit. We need people to work. Eliminating the capital gains tax isn't going to make people quit their jobs. It will however will make them more likely to invest their money from that job into the markets.

The quality of our products does encourage investment. Our regulatory environment encourages investment. Eliminating the capital gains tax WILL encourage investment.



Nope, that's what your saying. I never said that.
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Dude, you are saying that. You are saying that we should eliminate capital gains tax. That's a pretty emphatic statement that invested income is of more value then productive income. Like I said, you haven't thought this through.
 
Mottleydude said:
Where did you get the idea I'm on the left on this? I'm just protecting my best economic interest from what is an incredibly bad idea.

Don't you think you're being rather hipocritical to arbitrarily eliminate taxes for one group of people and accusing those who point out it's intrinsic unfairness as instigating class warfare? You've got it ass backwards. Eliminating capital gains tax is instigating class warfare.

What you're not getting is that income is income is income no matter how you've gotten it and to decide, arbitrarily, that is of more value then other forms of income is not only unfair, it is asinine.
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1. It's not arbitrary. It would have a specific intent.

2. It's a pretty large group of people... 50% of American households.
 
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