Rallying the People Around a ‘Decency Agenda’

[PostmodernProphet]

How are the leftys supposed to do that? The right is in the silencing business. If Biden reaches out that hand of friendship you will swat it with a stick. t.

like the Bernie Bros and BLM have?......

 

[anatta]

im an "indecent " Deplorable.. fuck that noise

 

[Diesel]

One of the biggest impediments to change are the police unions (not all that different than teachers unions but that's a different subject). And I know, I'm another right-winger attacking unions. But it's true. We've known this for years and even left-leaning/liberal publications have reported on it. Police unions have fought changes to make police officers more accountable. And they've largely been very successful.

The political conundrum is those on the right usually go after public unions, however they see an opportunity to win police officer votes so they aren't going to go against police union wishes. And those on the left may not like the police unions, but public unions are some of their biggest supporters so they are hesitant to go after them. Thus many reform/accountability measures across the country in local and state legislatures have gone to defeat due to the power of the police unions.

That's a layer of the onion beneath its surface, but I would peel even deeper. The problem is American racism. Here and there we have made a serious attempt at improving race relations. We've done well, but we haven't done enough. Replacing police departments will give us somewhat of a new start, but it's not going to resolve the racist attitudes that led to structural racism that led to police misbehavior that led to police unions protecting that misbehavior.

 

[Diesel]

well obviously not......they merely want to cancel the forms of law enforcement that they remove funding from.........if they remove half the funding they only want to cancel half the law enforcement, right?......

No, you fucking idiot.

 

[cawacko]

That's a layer of the onion beneath its surface, but I would peel even deeper. The problem is American racism. Here and there we have made a serious attempt at improving race relations. We've done well, but we haven't done enough. Replacing police departments will give us somewhat of a new start, but it's not going to resolve the racist attitudes that led to structural racism that led to police misbehavior that led to police unions protecting that misbehavior.

There's no question racism is an issue in our country. But you can't really just 'end' racism. And there are cities where you have black Mayors, black Chief of Police and black officers and black people are still getting killed.

A big issue is the war on drugs. For instance we know people sell drugs in Beverly Hills but they aren't out doing so in the streets and having turf wars over it. You go to a low-income area and people are on the streets and people are getting killed over territory. And then you have kids who are essentially prisoners stuck inside their homes because of the violence in the streets. It's sad. But that's an economic thing more than racial (although you can't ignore the racial element of it). Therefore people living in these poorer areas have more interactions with the police and on a percentage basis they tend to be P.O.C.

Would ending the war on drugs change this dynamic? And argument can be made for that. (Although in San Francisco right now in the Tenderloin District it's basically a Farmers Market for drug dealers. It's a free for all out in the open for everyone to see and little to nothing is being done. That's not a good model either.)

We've seen in areas where the police have pulled back (after prior incidents) and crime and the murder rate has increased. That's not to suggest status quo or pulling back are the only two options but we've seen what a lack of presence can do.

Obviously there are no easy answers and attempts at reform are being made.

 

[Diesel]

There's no question racism is an issue in our country. But you can't really just 'end' racism. And there are cities where you have black Mayors, black Chief of Police and black officers and black people are still getting killed.

A big issue is the war on drugs. For instance we know people sell drugs in Beverly Hills but they aren't out doing so in the streets and having turf wars over it. You go to a low-income area and people are on the streets and people are getting killed over territory. And then you have kids who are essentially prisoners stuck inside their homes because of the violence in the streets. It's sad. But that's an economic thing more than racial (although you can't ignore the racial element of it). Therefore people living in these poorer areas have more interactions with the police and on a percentage basis they tend to be P.O.C.

Would ending the war on drugs change this dynamic? And argument can be made for that. (Although in San Francisco right now in the Tenderloin District it's basically a Farmers Market for drug dealers. It's a free for all out in the open for everyone to see and little to nothing is being done. That's not a good model either.)

We've seen in areas where the police have pulled back (after prior incidents) and crime and the murder rate has increased. That's not to suggest status quo or pulling back are the only two options but we've seen what a lack of presence can do.

Obviously there are no easy answers and attempts at reform are being made.

I appreciate your thoughtful response. In the few months I have been a member of JPP I have only managed to have a handful of meaningful exchanges (and not for lack of trying). It's pleasant to meet someone who gives serious thought to important issues and who can articulate them thoughtfully.

I agree about the drug war. It is a bigger failure than Vietnam and Iraq. It has gotten us nowhere with drugs, but it has gotten a lot of young (especially black) people in prison. Then when they're released they can't vote and they aren't eligible to receive student aid (thanks, GWB), so they have little to no hope of doing anything except earn minimum wage for the rest of their lives or sell more drugs.

We certainly cannot "end" racism, but we actually regress when people insist that racism doesn't even exist or that if it does exist, it's not on a scale that matters. I can't tell you how many times in my life I have been told that the US is a post-racial society or that the US has come so far in the past 50 years that racism is a negligible problem. It's not. It was baked into our systems. It permeates regional cultures. It's part of the organization of neighborhoods and the histories of families.

There are so many reasons why we have lost control over the policing system in this country. I think that in order to fix it, there is going to have to be a massive philosophical overhaul of the entire system. Police departments should not be cost centers. Police officers should not have quotas for tickets written and arrests made. The public employees whom we allow to help keep our communities safe need to be reprogrammed to remember that they serve us. They do not have unchecked dominion over us. There is a big guy/little dick attitude pervasive in law enforcement that attracts people who want to impose control over other people. (I'll save the fascinating psychological implications of that for a different post.) Instead, I think police officers should be just as likely -- and spend as much of their time -- pulling over speeders as helping an elderly person carry groceries to the car or helping a child cross the street.

 

[NiftyNiblick]

In a nation so politically divided, making even modest progress on critical issues can be a slog. Mr. Biden will need to rally the public behind a Decency Agenda with broad-based appeal. That means first turning down the temperature of the culture wars, backing a policy agenda with broad public support and returning to constitutional norms that served the nation well for so long.

I'm no Biden fan, but I'm sure that he'll do his best.

From my perspective, however, there's little or nothing left to salvage.
It's time for a page one re-write.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

well obviously not......they merely want to cancel the forms of law enforcement that they remove funding from.........if they remove half the funding they only want to cancel half the law enforcement, right?......

There are some loudmouthed youngsters shouting such idiocy. It fits with the standard youthful unmarried atheist anarchist crowd. Most Democrats recognize there is a problem.

Police are being used in areas where they shouldn't be such as handling mental cases or rescuing a child from abusive parents. It's good the police to act as guards for those actually doing these things, but police are not the best equipped or trained to handle such matters.

 

[NiftyNiblick]

Police are being used in areas where they shouldn't be such as handling mental cases or rescuing a child from abusive parents. It's good the police to act as guards for those actually doing these things, but police are not the best equipped or trained to handle such matters.

Right. Social workers and the like are afraid to enter the homes until police arrive, often with good reason. That's what cops tell me.

However, that pretty much removes the possibility of reduced funding.

The problem of police criminality is real and widespread, but we've got to find a more realistic way of addressing it.
Improvements generally require more, not less spending.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Right. Social workers and the like are afraid to enter the homes until police arrive, often with good reason. That's what cops tell me.

However, that pretty much removes the possibility of reduced funding.

The problem of police criminality is real and widespread, but we've got to find a more realistic way of addressing it.
Improvements generally require more, not less spending.

Reduced funding across the board, no. Reduced funding for the police and additional funding for the mental health services people, yes.

Unless the police actually have to get involved, once the mental health people, child protective services, whomever does their job, the police go back to theirs. If the police were the ones doing it, now two officers are removed from the streets to process the mental case, parents, whatever.

Corruption exists wherever there are people. How widespread depends upon the group in question. What is your alternative solution to police?

 

[NiftyNiblick]

Police are expensive in major urban areas. It's a good paying civil service job with good benefits, and if it weren't, who the hell would do it?

It's a good enough job, however, to make sure not to hire violent racist assholes, and to prosecute them for their crimes if they sneak through the screening process.

How to handle it in Mayberry is another issue. The few small towns cops that I know are all assholes, but I don't know all of them.

 

[cawacko]

I appreciate your thoughtful response. In the few months I have been a member of JPP I have only managed to have a handful of meaningful exchanges (and not for lack of trying). It's pleasant to meet someone who gives serious thought to important issues and who can articulate them thoughtfully.

I agree about the drug war. It is a bigger failure than Vietnam and Iraq. It has gotten us nowhere with drugs, but it has gotten a lot of young (especially black) people in prison. Then when they're released they can't vote and they aren't eligible to receive student aid (thanks, GWB), so they have little to no hope of doing anything except earn minimum wage for the rest of their lives or sell more drugs.

We certainly cannot "end" racism, but we actually regress when people insist that racism doesn't even exist or that if it does exist, it's not on a scale that matters. I can't tell you how many times in my life I have been told that the US is a post-racial society or that the US has come so far in the past 50 years that racism is a negligible problem. It's not. It was baked into our systems. It permeates regional cultures. It's part of the organization of neighborhoods and the histories of families.

There are so many reasons why we have lost control over the policing system in this country. I think that in order to fix it, there is going to have to be a massive philosophical overhaul of the entire system. Police departments should not be cost centers. Police officers should not have quotas for tickets written and arrests made. The public employees whom we allow to help keep our communities safe need to be reprogrammed to remember that they serve us. They do not have unchecked dominion over us. There is a big guy/little dick attitude pervasive in law enforcement that attracts people who want to impose control over other people. (I'll save the fascinating psychological implications of that for a different post.) Instead, I think police officers should be just as likely -- and spend as much of their time -- pulling over speeders as helping an elderly person carry groceries to the car or helping a child cross the street.

For me personally, I enjoy discussions with people even if we disagree. It's how you learn and grown and make sure you are challenged and not stuck in a bubble.

As way of background I grew up in Oakland and went to school in Oakland. Oakland is obviously a very diverse place. I had friends whose parents were CEO's and had friends who lived in Oakland public housing. So through those relationships and experiences I do my best (may not always succeed but I try) to put myself in someone else's shoes and see things from their perspective. On top of that my brother-in-law is black. He and my sister have three kids. So when issues of race etc. get brought up it's also personal.

I'd answer this way, I agree with you that those who claim racism doesn't exist in this country anymore are mistaken. It's just not true. Where I differ with you is the extent the role racism plays in outcomes today. Example, I got my semi-annual high school newsletter recently. They interview a Senior and he said he learned he was an oppressed black man. This is an 18 year old kid going to a good private high school and probably has a bright future in front of him and that's his mind set. When you start thinking that way, and ultimately internalize it, you are holding yourself back.

Like with everything there is nuance. I saw black friends get pulled over for DWB. I witnessed it so I know it's real. I support efforts to hold officers accountable for their behavior and to improve overall policing performance. But offering another local example cars getting their windows smashed has long been a problem in SF but it's off the charts now. Women getting harassed while on the streets has increased greatly as well. And I see on social media people I know who are politically progressive screaming out at our City leaders to do something about this. Not an easy position to be in if you want to completely reform the police department.

 

[Diesel]

For me personally, I enjoy discussions with people even if we disagree. It's how you learn and grown and make sure you are challenged and not stuck in a bubble.

As way of background I grew up in Oakland and went to school in Oakland. Oakland is obviously a very diverse place. I had friends whose parents were CEO's and had friends who lived in Oakland public housing. So through those relationships and experiences I do my best (may not always succeed but I try) to put myself in someone else's shoes and see things from their perspective. On top of that my brother-in-law is black. He and my sister have three kids. So when issues of race etc. get brought up it's also personal.

I'd answer this way, I agree with you that those who claim racism doesn't exist in this country anymore are mistaken. It's just not true. Where I differ with you is the extent the role racism plays in outcomes today. Example, I got my semi-annual high school newsletter recently. They interview a Senior and he said he learned he was an oppressed black man. This is an 18 year old kid going to a good private high school and probably has a bright future in front of him and that's his mind set. When you start thinking that way, and ultimately internalize it, you are holding yourself back.

Like with everything there is nuance. I saw black friends get pulled over for DWB. I witnessed it so I know it's real. I support efforts to hold officers accountable for their behavior and to improve overall policing performance. But offering another local example cars getting their windows smashed has long been a problem in SF but it's off the charts now. Women getting harassed while on the streets has increased greatly as well. And I see on social media people I know who are politically progressive screaming out at our City leaders to do something about this. Not an easy position to be in if you want to completely reform the police department.

A victim mentality is probably always an impediment to full potential -- whether or not the person experiencing is a true victim or not. This has been a great exchange. Pleasure meeting you.