Raise The Minimum Wage!

[Rune]

Which has already been debunked in this thread by more than one individual. the loss in buying power has more to do with macro factors in the economy then it does micro factors like wage control.

Here we are with the reading comprehension fellow again. Though this is now tiring rather than entertaining, let us continue.
[h=2]Definition of DEBUNK[/h]transitive verb
: to expose the sham or falseness of <debunk a legend>

— de·bunk·er noun

See debunk defined for English-language learners »

See debunk defined for kids »

[h=2]Examples of DEBUNK[/h]

• The article debunks the notion that life exists on Mars.
• The results of the study debunk his theory.

From the examples of debunk, we see that a study or an article can debunk or disprove a theory.

We do not see, however, that by one simply stating one's opinion any debunking occurs.

I have asked for proof of statements from all involved in this thread, NONE have been provided. NO DEBUNKING HAS OCCURED SO FAR.

 

[j-mac]

I am advocating that an increase be considered, not a fixed amount. Perhaps you could refer to the OP as to the thread topic?

That is a disingenuous dodge at best. Conversations progress. Evidently you want to not be questioned.

You don't consider bankrupt businesses and umemployed people to be suffering from carnage (economic, yet carnage nonetheless)?

Loss of employment, and shuttered businesses do occur as a direct result of increasing minimum wages.

May I suggest that a dictionary might aid your ability to understand english?

So a diversionary tactic instead of having a discussion...Not surprised. Disappointed though.

Perhaps you can point out which word indicates emotion?

Telling people to "shut up" indicate emotion, and rudeness.

Again, it seems you have difficulty understanding what words actually mean. You well be beyond the point of being able to improve your vocabulary with simply a dictionary.

Rereading your previous entry, it is now clear that your grasp upon written english and word usage is tenuous at best.

As tempting as it is to shred you after comments like this, I'll chalk it up to desperation, and trolling.

Too funny. I answer your question and provide a querry tit for tat.

You did? Where?

Rather than provide the proof I asked for (which I knew you would be incapable of since none exists) you demand I provide you with further answers. Good luck with that debate tactic, son.

Son? heh, heh...And I am the funny one eh?.....

Now, for the second time, can you provide any proof whatsoever of previous economic burdens caused by raising the minimum wage?

Actually, there is a pretty good one at the National Center for Policy Analysis. Here, I'll give you a snippet.

In a free labor market, wage rates reflect the willingness of workers to work (supply) and the willingness of employers to hire them (demand). Worker productivity is the main determinant of what employers are willing to pay. Most working people are not directly affected by the minimum wage because their productivity and, hence, their pay, is already well above it.

The law of demand says that at a higher price, less is demanded, and it applies to grapefruit, cars, movie tickets and, yes, labor. Because a legislated increase in the price of labor does not increase workers' productivity, some workers will lose their jobs. Which ones? Those who are the least productive.

Minimum wage laws mostly harm teenagers and young adults because they typically have little work experience and take jobs that require fewer skills. That's why economists looking for the effect of the minimum wage on employment don't look at data on educated 45-year-old men; rather, they focus on teenagers and young adults, especially black teenagers. Paul Samuelson, the first American winner of the Nobel Prize in economics, put it succinctly back in 1970. Analyzing a proposal to raise the minimum wage to $2 an hour in his famous textbook, Economics , he wrote, "What good does it do a black youth to know that an employer must pay him $2 an hour if the fact that he must be paid that amount is what keeps him from getting a job?"

A comprehensive survey of minimum wage studies found that a 10 percent increase in the minimum wage reduces employment of young workers by 1 percent to 2 percent. To put that into perspective:

Gov. Schwarzenegger's proposed 15 percent increase in the state minimum wage would destroy about 35,000 to 70,000 unskilled jobs - putting 1.5 to 3 percent of young Californians out of work.
Overall, the proposed minimum wage increase in California would eliminate about 70,000 to 140,000 jobs.
A 15 percent increase in the minimum wage nationwide would destroy about 290,000 to 590,000 young people's jobs, and about 400,000 to 800,000 jobs overall.
Fortunately, and to his credit, Gov. Schwarzenegger wants to avoid indexing the minimum wage to either the consumer price index or a wage index, as the French government did in 1970. Indexing the minimum wage makes it much harder to get the inflation-adjusted minimum wage down and makes it permanently harder for the least-skilled workers to find jobs. The rising minimum wage in France since then has added to the country's youth-unemployment woes.

http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba550/

 

[Rune]

That is a disingenuous dodge at best. Conversations progress. Evidently you want to not be questioned. Stupid reply at best. Evidently you do not understand the word topic. The topic of this thread is raise the minimum wage, not what is my personal opinion on how much to raise the minimum wage. If you want to discuss how much to raise the minimum wage, start your own thread, don't try to hijack this one. Do I need to print the dictionary definition of topic for you, or could you look it up yourself?



Loss of employment, and shuttered businesses do occur as a direct result of increasing minimum wages.

You don't think loss employment and shuttered businesses is carnage? Can you rpovide any actual proof of your claims, other than a link to a far right website, lol.? You saying it doesn't prove shit, anymore than the idealogue you quoted. Link to articles about actual businesses that went bankrupt as a direct result of an increase in the minimum wage.



So a diversionary tactic instead of having a discussion...Not surprised. Disappointed though.


Hardly, moron, an educational tactic, that we might have a discussion, not successful apparently. Not disapointed or surprised.


Telling people to "shut up" indicate emotion, and rudeness.

Telling conservatives to shut up indicates lack of patience with conservatives.



As tempting as it is to shred you after comments like this, I'll chalk it up to desperation, and trolling.

Shred away Ren'e.



You did? Where?

Why don't you go ahead and show some proof of carnage caused by raising the minimum wage in the past.

Son? heh, heh...And I am the funny one eh?.....
Trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, that your general ignorance is based on lack of experience rather than lack of intelligence.


Actually, there is a pretty good one at the National Center for Policy Analysis. Here, I'll give you a snippet.

Please try to understand what is considered proof versus opinion.

 

[christiefan915]

A total of 19 years with only one increase in the minimum wage, yet the COLA increased greatly.

"From January 1981 to April 1990, the minimum wage was frozen at $3.35 per hour, then a record-setting wage freeze. Rise in COLA during the same period, 48.3%.

From September 1, 1997 through July 23, 2007, the federal minimum wage remained constant at $5.15 per hour, breaking the old record." Rise in COLA during the same period, 27.9%.

http://www.ssa.gov/oact/COLA/colaseries.html

 

[j-mac]

Stupid reply at best.

Is this what passes for debate in here?

Evidently you do not understand the word topic. The topic of this thread is raise the minimum wage, not what is my personal opinion on how much to raise the minimum wage.

How can anyone expect to have any intelligent discourse on the topic if those advocating the rise in minimum wage, don't have the first clue as to what that rise should be?

If you want to discuss how much to raise the minimum wage, start your own thread, don't try to hijack this one.

No need to start a new thread, this one will do.

Do I need to print the dictionary definition of topic for you, or could you look it up yourself?

No need unless you need to educate yourself. Then by all means you can do that in private instead of projecting your desperation.

You don't think loss employment and shuttered businesses is carnage?

break out that dictionary and look it up.

Can you rpovide any actual proof of your claims, other than a link to a far right website, lol.?

Far right website? Are you kidding?

The National Center for Policy Analysis (NCPA) is a nonprofit, nonpartisan public policy research organization, established in 1983. Our goal is to develop and promote private, free-market alternatives to government regulation and control, solving problems by relying on the strength of the competitive, entrepreneurial private sector.

Link to articles about actual businesses that went bankrupt as a direct result of an increase in the minimum wage.

Do anecdotes carry more weight with you than actual studies?

Hardly, moron, an educational tactic, that we might have a discussion, not successful apparently. Not disapointed or surprised.

Again with the name calling?

Telling conservatives to shut up indicates lack of patience with conservatives.

So you are generally short tempered with those that don't agree with you eh? How awfully tolerant of you.

Shred away Ren'e.

Nah, my feeling is that it wouldn't do you any good. And being new here I'd like to think that at some point we can move toward actual discussion of differing ideas rather than this knee jerk attack of me because I am conservative.

Trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, that your general ignorance is based on lack of experience rather than lack of intelligence.

More names....Pathetic.

Please try to understand what is considered proof versus opinion.

Why don't you lay it out what you will accept, see earlier you wanted anecdotes, now you take a study and call it opinion....Here's a novel thought tell me your proof that raising the minimum wage has no effect on business.

 

[j-mac]

A total of 19 years with only one increase in the minimum wage, yet the COLA increased greatly.

"From January 1981 to April 1990, the minimum wage was frozen at $3.35 per hour, then a record-setting wage freeze. Rise in COLA during the same period, 48.3%.

From September 1, 1997 through July 23, 2007, the federal minimum wage remained constant at $5.15 per hour, breaking the old record." Rise in COLA during the same period, 27.9%.

http://www.ssa.gov/oact/COLA/colaseries.html

As a truck driver for the past 20 years I will concede that wages have not kept pace with inflation over the years, but I wonder how much of this is due to ever tightening regulation, and increased cost of doing business rather than some simplified Occupy theme of the 99% v. 1%?

 

[Rune]

Is this what passes for debate in here?



How can anyone expect to have any intelligent discourse on the topic if those advocating the rise in minimum wage, don't have the first clue as to what that rise should be?



No need to start a new thread, this one will do.



No need unless you need to educate yourself. Then by all means you can do that in private instead of projecting your desperation.



break out that dictionary and look it up.



Far right website? Are you kidding?





Do anecdotes carry more weight with you than actual studies?



Again with the name calling?



So you are generally short tempered with those that don't agree with you eh? How awfully tolerant of you.



Nah, my feeling is that it wouldn't do you any good. And being new here I'd like to think that at some point we can move toward actual discussion of differing ideas rather than this knee jerk attack of me because I am conservative.



More names....Pathetic.



Why don't you lay it out what you will accept, see earlier you wanted anecdotes, now you take a study and call it opinion....Here's a novel thought tell me your proof that raising the minimum wage has no effect on business.

Thanks for proving you have neither an idea what you are talking about nor proof of the theories you subscribe to. Next time, please get to the point sooner, in other words, shut up.

 

[Damocles]

I don't think it will get raised at all, nevermind enough to make a difference at all in any of the scenarios you propose.
Why don't you go ahead and show some proof of carnage caused by raising the minimum wage in the past.
That should be easy, or if it is not, shut up since all your arguments have already been rebutted.

That wasn't the question he asked. He said if it did how much do you think would be fair and how do you think it would affect specific groups of people?

 

[Damocles]

If minimum wage goes up then the costs associated with users of minimum wage labor (however limited they may be) go up but only those costs alone, and on and on.

Right... However, much of those jobs are in farming. We've artificially kept food costs down by using illegal immigrants to work for wages that no American would accept for that type of job.

Can you list jobs you think pay minimum? How many people would be affected positively? Would anybody be affected, and if not then why? As I said, this is pretty much something Democrats bring up when they don't have something of substance to bring to a campaign. It plays on the emotive side of politics, affects much less people positively while actually creating an inflationary cost to businesses. Minimum wage jobs are traditionally entry level jobs taken by HS kids, the idea that people would suddenly raise families on that job is a bit silly... While it doesn't raise many others (except some unions with contracts where pay is tied to minimum wage) and just makes it even harder for people on the line of poverty, the "almost poor"... Those people who are supposed to most be helped by Obamatax...

Neither you nor anyone else has yet to offer proof that raising the minimum wage does anymore than just that, raising the minimum wage.
What has been established however, is that the funds available to those who earn the very least will now purchase substantially less food than they would at the time the government last determined that that was the minimum amount one could be paid. Food prices have skyrocketted since the minimum wage was last increased. The buying power of the dollar has dropped dramatically in that time, despite the minimum staying the same.

How is it OK that that the most vulnerable be allowed to be paid far less value as time goes on?

Again, how much should it go up and do you think it would affect small business at all? How do you think that a cost of business is not and could not be inflationary or have any effect whatsoever on employment at that level? Are there businesses who may hire at that level because that is all they can afford? What happens to them?

 

[Rune]

That wasn't the question he asked. He said if it did how much do you think would be fair and how do you think it would affect specific groups of people?

I answered that I don't think it will be raised enough to make a difference, and that the topic of the thread is not how much by whether or not to raise it.
I further stated that my opinion of an amount is irrelevant and conversely asked him to prove his statement three times, which he failed entirely to do.

Is that clear enough or do you need more help following along?

 

[Damocles]

I answered that I don't think it will be raised enough to make a difference, and that the topic of the thread is not how much by whether or not to raise it.
I further stated that my opinion of an amount is irrelevant and conversely asked him to prove his statement three times, which he failed entirely to do.

Is that clear enough or do you need more help following along?

Once again, read it slowly if you must... IF it could happen, how much do YOU think would be enough? How do you think that would effect small businesses?

We're trying to understand your premise... Instead of simply giving up, try actually talking about what you think. How much is a "living wage"?

 

[Rune]

Right... However, much of those jobs are in farming. We've artificially kept food costs down by using illegal immigrants to work for wages that no American would accept for that type of job.

Migrant farm workers, legal or illegal are generally paid as pieceworkers, immune to minimum wage.

Can you list jobs you think pay minimum? How many people would be affected positively? Would anybody be affected, and if not then why? As I said, this is pretty much something Democrats bring up when they don't have something of substance to bring to a campaign. It plays on the emotive side of politics, affects much less people positively while actually creating an inflationary cost to businesses. Minimum wage jobs are traditionally entry level jobs taken by HS kids, the idea that people would suddenly raise families on that job is a bit silly... While it doesn't raise many others (except some unions with contracts where pay is tied to minimum wage) and just makes it even harder for people on the line of poverty, the "almost poor"... Those people who are supposed to most be helped by Obamatax...

Could you? I tire of this already. My entire point is that your side is long on supposition on this matter, yet sadly short on proof.
You are right about one thing though. Most people are not feeding families on a minimum wage job. It usually requires several, all part time, none with benefits, and none with significant buying power. Around here, men fight over jobs that at one time went to H.S. students.
We may as well live in diffferent worlds, yours is so different than mine.



Again, how much should it go up and do you think it would affect small business at all. How do you think that a cost of business is not and could not be inflationary?

Do I sound like an economist? How could I possibly know the answer to this? Listen, if some number is so important to the formation of your argument here, pick one and I will concede that it is appropriate, assuming that it is of course.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

I answered that I don't think it will be raised enough to make a difference, and that the topic of the thread is not how much by whether or not to raise it.
I further stated that my opinion of an amount is irrelevant and conversely asked him to prove his statement three times, which he failed entirely to do.

Is that clear enough or do you need more help following along?

Seems like a pretty simple and straightforward question that you simply refuse to answer. They've asked you several times now, and you keep saying it's not important... but how can it not be? IF we are to satisfy your concerns that the minimum wage is too low, we kind of need to know what you have in mind as a suitable one, don't we? Otherwise, there can really be no end to this... we can raise it a little, and you will still moan and complain... so what we're doing, is taking care of that up front, what amount does the minimum wage need to be raised to, in your opinion? What amount would satisfy you, as a liberal? OR... is the problem not REALLY the minimum wage? Is this more about having the emotive issue to pull out whenever election time comes? The answer is revealed in your response to the question! You already concede that it won't be raised enough to matter! It won't "fix" whatever problem you are whining about. That's a mighty convenient issue to have in your toolbox, isn't it? Something that is never going to be suitable for you or adequate enough! From now on, you have an issue that you can always throw out there and chastise conservatives with! It doesn't matter how much they raise it, it doesn't matter how many times you are asked a legitimate question... you just want to keep the turd floating, so you can continue to point to it when you have nothing else to talk about.

 

[Damocles]

Do I sound like an economist? How could I possibly know the answer to this? Listen, if some number is so important to the formation of your argument here, pick one and I will concede that it is appropriate, assuming that it is of course.

You must have some idea some number in your own mind. If you were this ignorant you couldn't possibly be sure that the current minimum was insufficient. Just raising it randomly based on how you feel about it without even being able to tell me who it would affect positively, how it may affect others, and just insisting that business costs are not inflationary is just nonsense.

Have a bit of courage of conviction. Research the arguments on your side a bit better, give us something.

The idea that one can ignore economics 101 (cost-push inflation) and just keep repeating the same thing with no ideas of your own while telling others they are not empathetic enough is just hacktacularly ignorant.

The costs of food are not sticky downward (Keynesian idea, also in the link above), increases in the cost of business, unless carefully at a level where costs can be absorbed, and thus not enough to bend around a "living wage", the cost will be passed on to consumers. Thankfully they aren't sticky downward because large increases of business cost on such products can and have in the past caused loss of jobs and recession.

You do not need to be an economist to understand that costs of business are inflationary, and that paying employees is one of the larger costs of business.

 

[Rune]

Once again, read it slowly if you must... IF it could happen, how much do YOU think would be enough? How do you think that would effect small businesses?

We're trying to understand your premise... Instead of simply giving up, try actually talking about what you think. How much is a "living wage"?

Since when is the minimum wage supposed to be a living wage?

 

[signalmankenneth]

House Dems propose raising minimum wage from $7.25 to $10

It's a start?

http://thehill.com/blogs/floor-action/house/231417-house-dems-propose-10hour-minimum-wage/

 

[christiefan915]

This is the kind of thing Repubs bring up when they don't have anything of substance to bring to a campaign.

Rep. Phil Gingrey (R-Ga.) got personal while criticizing President Obama over the weak June jobs numbers.

Speaking on CNN’s "Starting Point" with Soledad O’Brien, Gingrey said the president was all style and no substance, as evidenced by his “toothy smile.”

“You know, the president can put all kind of spin on it,” Gingrey said. “He's got a nice swagger, a toothy smile, shows lots of gum. But what the American people want now is a little bit more gumption, a little less gum.”

http://thehill.com/video/house/236447-gop-rep-obama-has-a-toothy-smile-shows-lots-of-gum

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Christshesdumb: This is the kind of thing Repubs bring up...

Wait a sec.... WHO is bringing up the minimum wage being inadequate??????

 

[christiefan915]

Dicksissle: Wait a sec.... WHO is bringing up the minimum wage being inadequate??????

Dems are bringing up something they see as a real-life problem. Repubs don't give a hoot about adequate wages so they bring up Obama's teeth.

 

[cawacko]

Dicksissle;1032032]Wait a sec.... WHO is bringing up the minimum wage being inadequate??????

Dems are bringing up something they see as a real-life problem. Repubs don't give a hoot about adequate wages so they bring up Obama's teeth.[/QUOTE

Are higher wages for those who have work worth it for the jobs lost that it will cost?