Racial turn for abortion debate

King of Hoops said:
If by "selective," you mean, me trying to ram the Church's teachings down every American's throat (meatless Fridays during Lent, annual confessions, etc.), then that's just funny. This isn't even a deflection, its more just you, sticking your tongue out at me.

As for "saving you" from your decisions, that really isn't my style. I did kind of hope to appeal to your Catholicism, to see what the deal was with you, though. In fact, one tenet of both the Church and the Knights of Columbus that I don't fit into well, is to evangelize the faith. This is one thing I'm not big on, because I don't have the patience for people. One thing I have learned from hanging out with leftists online, is that life can be easier for me if I just keep my mouth shut about the things that matter most. That's fine, because as the saying goes, its more fun to party with the... whatevers. Abortion is one thing that doesn't really require communion with the Church to look at, and observe as a murderous act. There are some things people shouldn't just sit around and let happen, and abortion happens to be one of them.
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Wow threedee. I am beyond impressed. Seriously.
 
NigelTufnel said:
That is odd. I remember overhearing a conversation on the subway among two black women back when the "is he black enough?" debate was all the rage in the heady days of primary season. It went something like this:

Woman 1: Is his mom black or white?

Woman 2: She's white.

Woman 1: What about his wife?

Woman 2: She's black.

Woman 1: Then he's black enough for me.
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Yes, you should defer to the ignorant proles on the subway system to learn how it is.
 
Whether Obama is considered black or biracial or whatever isn't really relevant. It's the fact that his mother is white that makes it odd. If his mother were black, then the ad would be sending a coherent message.
 
King of Hoops said:
If by "selective," you mean, me trying to ram the Church's teachings down every American's throat (meatless Fridays during Lent, annual confessions, etc.), then that's just funny. This isn't even a deflection, its more just you, sticking your tongue out at me.

As for "saving you" from your decisions, that really isn't my style. I did kind of hope to appeal to your Catholicism, to see what the deal was with you, though. In fact, one tenet of both the Church and the Knights of Columbus that I don't fit into well, is to evangelize the faith. This is one thing I'm not big on, because I don't have the patience for people. One thing I have learned from hanging out with leftists online, is that life can be easier for me if I just keep my mouth shut about the things that matter most. That's fine, because as the saying goes, its more fun to party with the... whatevers. Abortion is one thing that doesn't really require communion with the Church to look at, and observe as a murderous act. There are some things people shouldn't just sit around and let happen, and abortion happens to be one of them.
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I have to call bullshit when I see smell bullshit. You're spewing the Catholic Church party line 3D and don't be a hypocrite about it. The fact is, abortion is a procedure that is often medically necessary to save lives of women and as a form of birth control there exist a wide range of moral grey area about abortion so don't ignore these and then tell us your not kowtowing to the Churches party line. It's neither credible or believable.
 
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Mott the Hoople said:
I have to call bullshit when I see smell bullshit. You're spewing the Catholic Church party line 3D and don't be a hypocrite about it. The fact is, abortion is a procedure that is often medically necessary to save lives of women and as a form of birth control there exist a wide rage of moral grey area about abortion so i don't ignore these and then tell us your not kowtowing to the Churches party line. It's neither credible or believable.
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Look out folks... here comes the racist.... now to be fair, he spews enough bullshit that he should actually know what it smells like. That said, I see your call of bullshit and raise it with a double bullshit.

Abortion is rarely used to save the life of the mother (in terms of percentage of total abortions).

You are correct in that some women do indeed pretend abortion is simply 'birth control'.

You are quite incorrect in stating that there is a moral grey area. While the pro-abortion crowd has certainly done an admirable job to pretend that their is ambiguity... the bottom line is that an abortion ends a human life. Period. That is SCIENTIFIC FACT.
 
Superfreak said:
Look out folks... here comes the racist.... now to be fair, he spews enough bullshit that he should actually know what it smells like. That said, I see your call of bullshit and raise it with a double bullshit.

Abortion is rarely used to save the life of the mother (in terms of percentage of total abortions).

You are correct in that some women do indeed pretend abortion is simply 'birth control'.

You are quite incorrect in stating that there is a moral grey area. While the pro-abortion crowd has certainly done an admirable job to pretend that their is ambiguity... the bottom line is that an abortion ends a human life. Period. That is SCIENTIFIC FACT.
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Typical moronic dribble from a person who refers to the President by a racial eptithet. Look, I know you went to some second rate catholic school were learning to think critically wasn't high on the priority list but if you don't think grey areas exist about ethics in the abortion debate then you are truly simple minded or just singing the Vaticans party line too.

First. 3D refered to it as murder. Not "ending a life". That's a fucking grey area there as "murder" is a legal term and one used by the Vatican about abortion. So get's some facts straight Mr. Light Weight. All sorts of grey areas exist in this debate;

Are embryos, zygotes and fetuses "persons" worthy of legal protections?
Should the potential to be a person give embryos, zygotes and fetuses a right to life?
Does a fetus gain rights as it gets closer to birth?
Is abortion acceptable in cases of rape, incest, contraception failure?
Is abortion acceptable in cases where the fetus is deformed?
Is abortion acceptable in cases where if the pregnancy were to continue, it would pose a direct threat to the life of the mother?
On this issue does it go with out saying that the well-being of the woman and the value of her life plan should always be recognised as of intrinsic nature"?
When does "personhood" begin?

are just a few of the grey areas in this discussion. So take off your religious blinders and quite parroting what others have told you and try using independent thought and critical thinking when discussing this issue.

3D was parroting the Catholic Church party line on abortion. There is nothing wrong with this, if that is where his values lie, but don't try to bullshit a bullshitter and tell me that he is not.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
Typical moronic dribble from a person who refers to the President by a racial eptithet.
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You keep saying this, but to date, between the two of us... ONLY you have used a racial epithet. So again, as I said the other times you claimed this line of bullshit.... go back to the bracket thread and re-read it. You are the one who brought race into. You are the one who called the President an uppity N.....

Look, I know you went to some second rate catholic school were learning to think critically wasn't high on the priority list but if you don't think grey areas exist about ethics in the abortion debate then you are truly simple minded or just singing the Vaticans party line too.
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First, I am agnostic. Thus, I do not subscribe to any religious beliefs.

Second, there is no moral gray area when it comes to taking an innocent life.... at least no valid reason has been given..... do tell us why you think an innocent life should be taken.

First. 3D refered to it as murder. Not "ending a life". That's a fucking grey area there as "murder" is a legal term and one used by the Vatican about abortion. So get's some facts straight Mr. Light Weight. All sorts of grey areas exist in this debate;
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Easy Mr. Racist.... don't get your panties in a bunch. I am not 3D. I agree that calling it murder or not is a gray area because it requires us to look at the legality. But there is NO question and NO grey area that an innocent life is being extinguished. None. Unless you wish to provide evidence that contradicts science as we know it today.

Are embryos, zygotes and fetuses "persons" worthy of legal protections?
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THIS is a valid question. That most certainly is up for discussion as it is arbitrary as to where we draw the line, unless of course we put the line at the beginning of the life. But that still does not change the FACT that you are ending a human life with an abortion. You need to understand the difference between LEGAL and MORAL.

Should the potential to be a person give embryos, zygotes and fetuses a right to life?
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I refer back to the previous answer I gave as to the LEGALITIES. But I wanted to highlight the 'potential to be a person' portion of this one. That is a primary example of what I was referring to. The pro-abortionists attempts to CREATE gray area.

Is abortion acceptable in cases of rape, incest, contraception failure?
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the final one is simply retarded. Everyone knows that contraception is not 100% effective. If contraception fails then you take responsibility for your CHOICES.

Is abortion acceptable in cases where the fetus is deformed?
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No.

Is abortion acceptable in cases where if the pregnancy were to continue, it would pose a direct threat to the life of the mother?
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Yes, in those rare cases where it comes down to the life of the mother vs. the life of the child, then you have right to life vs. right to life. The mother should be able to make that choice.

On this issue does it go with out saying that the well-being of the woman and the value of her life plan should always be recognised as of intrinsic nature"?
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Elaborate on this one... not sure what you mean.... please clarify.


are just a few of the grey areas in this discussion. So take off your religious blinders and quite parroting what others have told you and try using independent thought and critical thinking when discussing this issue.
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Again moron... I am agnostic. I speak from an entirely SCIENTIFIC view on this.
 
Mott, if I were to be carrying the Church's line on this site, there are a number of questionable things I wouldn't do:

Inserting the pictures, and making all of the sexual comments I make, is frowned upon (but I just can't help myself)
Condoning birth control (more than frowned upon)
My position on drugs (legalize them, and let natural selection take its course) is probably at odds with the Church
Also, I masturbate (hated practice)

I probably do a better job than most Catholic guys my age, but I definitely fall short of where I am capable of being. Furthermore, my comments on this site about how the Catholic Church has done nothing for America politically (ever), and has merely enabled the Democratic Party to do as it pleases throughout history, would probably not earn me cool points with the American CC.
 
King of Hoops said:
If by "selective," you mean, me trying to ram the Church's teachings down every American's throat (meatless Fridays during Lent, annual confessions, etc.), then that's just funny. This isn't even a deflection, its more just you, sticking your tongue out at me.

As for "saving you" from your decisions, that really isn't my style. I did kind of hope to appeal to your Catholicism, to see what the deal was with you, though. In fact, one tenet of both the Church and the Knights of Columbus that I don't fit into well, is to evangelize the faith. This is one thing I'm not big on, because I don't have the patience for people. One thing I have learned from hanging out with leftists online, is that life can be easier for me if I just keep my mouth shut about the things that matter most. That's fine, because as the saying goes, its more fun to party with the... whatevers. Abortion is one thing that doesn't really require communion with the Church to look at, and observe as a murderous act. There are some things people shouldn't just sit around and let happen, and abortion happens to be one of them.
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I didn't say a single thing about proselytizing. My comment about selectivity is that you've picked and chose about what constitutes pro-life, and narrowed it down to abortion.

Is it pro-life to bomb the shit out of innocent babies in Iraq or whatever other country the US is interfering in?
Is it pro-life when innocent people lose their lives to gun violence because a segment of the population considers even the most moderate gun regulations to be against their God-given rights?
Is it pro-life when innocent people lose their live when a drunk driver hits them, and then gets off with a slap on the wrist?
Is it pro-life when innocent people trying to make a living die in mining accidents because some think that government regulations are equal to overreach?
Is it pro-life when haters make comments about Muslims like "kill them all and let Allah sort them out."
Is it pro-life when the the death penalty is applied and then the Innocence Project is able to exonerate through DNA evidence 266 people still on death row?
What about the Stryker Brigade that killed for thrills in A'stan?

Anti-abortionists are not going to guilt me into thinking that my support for a woman's right to choose makes me a murderer. I respect the right of anyone to be against abortion but I don't respect the hatefulness those people show toward those who support choice.
 
Christie, the 2nd Amendment is a radical document, even for its time. Rather than use the words "denied," "prohibited" or "banned," it chose to go with "infringed." Technically, every single act touching upon guns is unconstitutional. The Second also happens to be a cornerstone of American principles. If American = Pro-Death, then God help us all.

I'm not sure what your obsession is with drunk driving, but if you want to see the laws changed, go for it. As for relatives you have, I don't personally know them, and thus their deaths are no more significant to me than those of cancer victims, stroke victims, and abortion victims.

Also, in the US, we have much better coal mine safety standards than exist in China and Chile, for example...
 
christiefan915 said:
I don't need to look at a link. I've been pregnant and given birth.

The difference to me is that there is no equivalence between having an abortion, and my teen-aged son being killed by a drunk driver, for example.
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I must be misunderstanding the above. Surely you aren't saying it should be ok for people to be killed by drunk drivers. please clarify the above for me if you would.
 
christiefan915 said:
In other words, you're just as selective about Catholic teaching as I am.

No worries, 3D. When I'm burning in the eternal flame, maybe one of you flawless individuals will dip your finger in the water and cool my tongue.
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What these young studs don't realize is that all birth control does is prevent the fertilized egg from being able to implant itself. Birth control does in a sense kill, if they want to get technical. So, is it a life when fertilized or is it a life when implanted?
 
A dirty, little secret in the pharmaceutical world is that the Pill if taken in a certain way can actually work AFTER conception by preventing the embryo from implanting on the uterine wall. In other words, the pill can cause the baby to die. This is simply abortion by another name.

The “Morning After” Pill is nothing more than the regular birth control pill taken in massive dosage to insure that the embryo will not implant.

When taken as prescribed (every day) the birth control pill prevents conception by: 1. usually preventing ovulation, and 2. thickening cervical mucous to delay/interfere with sperm entry through the cervix.
If the pill fails to prevent ovulation and conception, it prevents the fertilized egg from growing through "changes in the endometrium which reduce the likelihood of implantation" (a form of abortion).

When taken as a “morning after pill” the mechanism of action is to prevent implantation of a conceptus (zygote, the fertilized egg). Prevention of implantation can also be a factor in preventing pregnancy in those women who forget to take the pill every day, and therefore ovulate. Ovulation can occasionally occur even when a woman never misses a pill [between 1 and 3 of very 100 women get pregnant while on the pill, and "research indicates that figure may be considerably higher, up to 4% for 'good compliers' and 8% for 'poor compliers'" [SIZE=-2](Potter, "How Effective Are Contraceptives?" Obstetrics and Gynecology 1996; 135:13S-23S.)[/SIZE]].

Although implantation prevention is apparently not the mechanism of action for the vast majority of women, especially for those who take the pill as prescribed, women who take birth control pills do risk the chance of aborting (killing) their unborn child.
 
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