Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel and Auschwitz

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Cypress

Well-known member
When Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel was asked where God was at Auschwitz, he said that it was the wrong question, and we should be asking where humans were at that time and place. In other words, we should not blame God for the messes we make through our own choices. God really did leave it to up to us to finish the garden world in which we were placed, to create the world of justice and peace of which God dreams.

A more scientific way of saying this is that after our genetic evolution essentially ended 40,000 years ago, evolution moved to consciousness, and we thus became conscious and responsible for our further evolution.



source: Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel as reported by Ron MIller of Lake Forest College
 
I think the story in Genesis about the Fall is a perfect analogy for growing up and taking responsibility for our actions.

Think of it: the tree was the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Upon eating of the fruit humans suddenly had knowledge of good and bad and were then required to act according to that knowledge. The "Fall" was really just what happens when you grow up. As a child you are not expected to know right from wrong all that well, but upon maturing you are 100% responsible for your own actions.

So I can see the Rabbi's point here.

However it does let God off the hook a bit. The humans most negatively impacted and hurt the most were the ones least likely to have any agency in any of the situations that resulted in their pain and suffering. The "choice" to do good or ill in this case is spread across "all of society" to some greater or lesser extent and that isn't really "just" or "fair".

If there IS a God that we are required to worship should there not be some reason to worship it? Why would I worship what amounts to an inert blob of nothingness who can sit by while countless innocents are tortured to death?
 
Daylight63 said:
while countless innocents are tortured to death?
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And therein lies the flaws in your lack of knowledge of modern post-Temple Jewish theology. One, there are no innocents, and two, for modern Orthodox Jews, only Jews have souls, all others just exist as a way for God to reward or punish Jews, as He sees fit.

www.csmonitor.com

Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, in his own words

The far-right Israeli cleric Rabbi Ovadia Yosef has made comments that would be condemned if they came from an Iranian leader.
www.csmonitor.com www.csmonitor.com

www.counterpunch.org

Why is the US Honoring a Racist Rabbi?

The Extremist Origins of Education and Sharing Day
www.counterpunch.org www.counterpunch.org

Christianity is a reform sect that rejects this sort of Babylonian cult nonsense. It still keeps the 'born in sin' aspect, though.

And, in any case, leftists and deviants could care less about 'The Innocent', as clearly demonstrated by their resorting to mass murder as a their go to solution for any economic and social problems, same as right wing dictators do. Their propagandists just babble that nonsense to fool the rubes.
 
anonymoose said:
Idiocracy
Idiocracy is a cult classic film that portrays a not-so-distant future where idiocy reigns supreme1. The movie, directed by Mike Judge, follows the story of Corporal Joe Bauers, who wakes up centuries in the future to find a world so incredibly moronic that he's easily the most intelligent person alive23. The film's bizarre predictions include a future where society becomes too stupid to survive, with a world covered in trash and ruled by idiots4.
Grok
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For example, as of February 23, 2025, posts on X have popped up calling out what some see as a decline in political discourse, with one user on February 19 saying it feels like “they gave White House socials over to some 15 year old Maga kid,” and another claiming “MAGA has turned America into an Idiocracy.” These reflect a current sentiment among some that political actions or rhetoric tied to MAGA echo the exaggerated absurdity of the movie.


@Grok
 
 
AProudLefty said:
For example, as of February 23, 2025, posts on X have popped up calling out what some see as a decline in political discourse, with one user on February 19 saying it feels like “they gave White House socials over to some 15 year old Maga kid,” and another claiming “MAGA has turned America into an Idiocracy.” These reflect a current sentiment among some that political actions or rhetoric tied to MAGA echo the exaggerated absurdity of the movie.


@Grok
Click to expand...
Did you see the movie ?
 
AProudLefty said:
posts on X have popped up calling out what some see as a decline in political discourse
Click to expand...

Yes; it's because of posters like yourself and the other deviants and sociopaths running around spamming social media with bizarre cult-like parroting,
 
Daylight63 said:
I think the story in Genesis about the Fall is a perfect analogy for growing up and taking responsibility for our actions.

Think of it: the tree was the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Upon eating of the fruit humans suddenly had knowledge of good and bad and were then required to act according to that knowledge. The "Fall" was really just what happens when you grow up. As a child you are not expected to know right from wrong all that well, but upon maturing you are 100% responsible for your own actions.

So I can see the Rabbi's point here.

However it does let God off the hook a bit. The humans most negatively impacted and hurt the most were the ones least likely to have any agency in any of the situations that resulted in their pain and suffering. The "choice" to do good or ill in this case is spread across "all of society" to some greater or lesser extent and that isn't really "just" or "fair".

If there IS a God that we are required to worship should there not be some reason to worship it? Why would I worship what amounts to an inert blob of nothingness who can sit by while countless innocents are tortured to death?
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It seems to me our conscience is imprinted with a certain knowledge of right and wrong.

If the Jews, Muslims, and Christians are correct that God imprinted that on us, if is up to us to freely practice that sense of moral duty.

I don't think worship is necessarily supposed to be about acquiring favors from God. It's supposed to be about being in communion with God and acquiring knowledge about your relationship to the divine.
 
Cypress said:
I don't think worship is necessarily supposed to be about acquiring favors from God. It's supposed to be about being in communion with God and acquiring knowledge about your relationship to the divine.
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I disagree 100% about the definition of worship, and doubly so with regards to Christianity.

Worship is not simply "communicating" like "checking in" with God. It's fealty, love, how could it be anything less? In Christianity God sacrificed himself to himself to atone man to himself. That is, as we are told all the time, the greatest gift. It is the GIFT of salvation.

Worship is not just "communion", it is love. It is what it is usually defined as:

"the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a diety"

But let's see what JESUS said:

Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, “‘Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.’
 
Daylight63 said:
I disagree 100% about the definition of worship, and doubly so with regards to Christianity.

Worship is not simply "communicating" like "checking in" with God. It's fealty, love, how could it be anything less? In Christianity God sacrificed himself to himself to atone man to himself. That is, as we are told all the time, the greatest gift. It is the GIFT of salvation.

Worship is not just "communion", it is love. It is what it is usually defined as:

"the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a diety"

But let's see what JESUS said:

Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, “‘Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.’
Click to expand...

Unless you think Mark is talking about romantic or sexual love, what I wrote is perfectly consistent with Mark.

Cypress said:
I don't think worship is necessarily supposed to be about acquiring favors from God. It's supposed to be about being in communion with God and acquiring knowledge about your relationship to the divine.
Click to expand...

I think if you want to use the theodicy argument for evil, then you are claiming there is absolute right and wrong in this world; that evil is objectively real and immanent. Otherwise everything is just subjective and relative.

If you want to do the theodicy argument, then you are pointing to an objective standard of goodness that exists apart from human opinion and culture.
 
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