Propaganda vs Fact

anonymoose said:
Of course not. Putin wants to install a pro- Russian govt. I'd say they have yet to install a pro-Russian govt.
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That is not what they are after, as I have said many times....The mission here is teaching the Ukrainians "Dont Poke The BEAR!"

Ukraine gets rubbleized until this happens, to include breaking Ukraine culturally.

A new government is not required to complete the mission.
 
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anatta said:
it maybe moot but not irrelevant..
any peace deal has to take into account why this war started to mitigate it from happening again
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Russia has been clear and consistent on what the Ukrainians need to do to end this attack.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
I am noting that even though Russia has been clear from day 1 that they are not trying to take and hold territory Western Propaganda every day screams "They have still not taken Kiev, look at how they are failing!"

And the ignorant propaganda consumers eat it up.
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How did that make sense to you? In order to hold it, you have to take it and they failed. However worse than that, you are suggesting they do not seek territory, they just want to kill the people and blow their homes up? Nice plan Putin, that will make friends.
 
Nordberg said:
How did that make sense to you? In order to hold it, you have to take it and they failed. However worse than that, you are suggesting they do not seek territory, they just want to kill the people and blow their homes up? Nice plan Putin, that will make friends.
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It is no shock that you are too dumb to follow along.

Sit Down Please.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
It is no shock that you are too dumb to follow along.

Sit Down Please.
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So you do not know what you are saying or what it means. I suppose when propaganda is your milieu it does get troublesome to keep it straight. You make no sense because what you say does not concur with facts.
 
anatta said:
it maybe moot but not irrelevant..
any peace deal has to take into account why this war started to mitigate it from happening again
Click to expand...

I just don’t see a peace deal as being permanent. Uk can’t trust Russia, Russia can’t trust Uk to be neutral in the long run after what they did and if Uk gets out of this with Zelenskyy still their president they will no doubt get a lot of help from the West to rebuild. Uk does not want to capitulate to Russia.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
I dont know how this is going to turn out....in a year or two will Ukraine be looking West, East, or neutral?

At the moment they are looking increasingly West but when this war is over and they survey a devastated Ukraine knowing that this did not need to happen, knowing that the West for almost two decades pushed them towards conflict with Russia and China....what will they think then?
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The West will probably help them rebuild the rubble Russia caused. Assuming Russia doesn’t “win” this thing outright.
 
anonymoose said:
Propganda is irrelevant in war. All that really counts is the end result.

So here are the facts to date.

Fact: Irrelevant as to why this war was started now. There is a war.

Fact: It’s obvious this hasn’t gone according to plan for the Russians at this point.

Fact: Ukrainians for the foreseeable future will hate Russia much like the Poles and Czechs etc do.
No matter what peace agreement may transpire this does not bode well for future Russian desires in Ukraine. Especially if the West helps rebuild Ukraine .

All for now.
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Is propaganda is irrelevant, no one would use it.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
I am noting that even though Russia has been clear from day 1 that they are not trying to take and hold territory Western Propaganda every day screams "They have still not taken Kiev, look at how they are failing!"

And the ignorant propaganda consumers eat it up.
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Russia is not trying to take and hold Ukrainian territory? What the fuck?
 
anonymoose said:
I just don’t see a peace deal as being permanent. Uk can’t trust Russia, Russia can’t trust Uk to be neutral in the long run after what they did and if Uk gets out of this with Zelenskyy still their president they will no doubt get a lot of help from the West to rebuild. Uk does not want to capitulate to Russia.
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all true. Remember we really have never had serious negotiations with Russia.
we dictate terms and ignore any deals in favor of "punishing Putin" - before the war
and certainly after any peace.. So the USA can't be an effective broker.

But Europe can lead negotiations and terms for peace

(Ex.) Ukraine is non-aligned / off the table for NATO membership.
Russia wants Crimea recognized and really wants LDNR international recognition.

Ukraine can give all this up ( everyone was ready to just give Putin Donbas before the war)
However in return gets some type of NATO security guarantee,
So If Russia were to invade again, Europe would promise to secure Ukraine.

Zelensky saves his country from Russian hegemony - he becomes a rock star and goes on tour with Bono

everybody follows the terms of the agreement because everyone gets something out of it
= classic realpolitik - not just terms on paper
 
Hawkeye10 said:
That is not what they are after, as I have said many times....The mission here is teaching the Ukrainians "Dont Poke The BEAR!"

Ukraine gets rubbleized until this happens, to include breaking Ukraine culturally.

A new government is not required to complete the mission.
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That is who's mission? So you think Putin started a war and is killing citizens and bombing cities because he thought Ukraine annoyed him. Do you live in Moscow?
 
anonymoose said:
Propganda is irrelevant in war. All that really counts is the end result.

So here are the facts to date.

Fact: Irrelevant as to why this war was started now. There is a war.

Fact: It’s obvious this hasn’t gone according to plan for the Russians at this point.

Fact: Ukrainians for the foreseeable future will hate Russia much like the Poles and Czechs etc do.
No matter what peace agreement may transpire this does not bode well for future Russian desires in Ukraine. Especially if the West helps rebuild Ukraine .

All for now.
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Here's another fact: If you've ever studied military tactics, Putin has Kiev in the middle of a pincer movement. It is what it is. :dunno:

ukrop9-s.jpg
 
Hawkeye10 said:
I dont know how this is going to turn out....in a year or two will Ukraine be looking West, East, or neutral?

At the moment they are looking increasingly West but when this war is over and they survey a devastated Ukraine knowing that this did not need to happen, knowing that the West for almost two decades pushed them towards conflict with Russia and China....what will they think then?
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depends if Ukraine nationalism is sufficiently pro-west.
It looks like Russia is not going to be able to instal a government.
Zelensky is literally letting all his cities get pounded into rubble to "save Ukraine"

So will the populace hate the Russians more then they blame the west for egging on Zelensky,
but not providing enough defense?
I think Russian hate (except Crimea, and Donbas and maybe some Black Sea coastline)
is enough to fuel their nationalism pro-west
 
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