Pro Life men are murderers

Darla said:
HA, ha, of course they did! That's fabulous. Perfect. That's exactly what they would think. They could have done away with women completely if only they could have figured out how to incubate those fully formed sperm-people.
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What do you expect from a bunch of conservative old celibate transvestites?
 
PostmodernProphet said:
does the Ringer think a sperm cell to be the equal of a zygote?.......we can make that a debate topic if you want to demonstrate more of what you don't really know about biology.....
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No I don't but that does bring up some interesting questions. When does the the zygote actually form? Does it form immeadiatly upon fertilization? Does it occur when the first diploid cell forms after the fusion of the haploid oocyte and the spermatazoa but only while the two genomes exist seperately? Is it formed when the pronucleii develop within the zona pelucida but prior to nuclear fusion? Is it formed when nuclear fusion has occurred or does it only become a zygote after the first mitotic division has occurred? If so, when the blastomeres develop does that mean one or two zygotes have formed or can it only really be classified as a zygote when enough mitotic divisions have occured and the cells have agglomorated into a morula? Which do you think it is?
 
Mott the Hoople said:
No I don't but that does bring up some interesting questions. When does the the zygote actually form? Does it form immeadiatly upon fertilization? Does it occur when the first diploid cell forms after the fusion of the haploid oocyte and the spermatazoa but only while the two genomes exist seperately? Is it formed when the pronucleii develop within the zona pelucida but prior to nuclear fusion? Is it formed when nuclear fusion has occurred or does it only become a zygote after the first mitotic division has occurred? If so, when the blastomeres develop does that mean one or two zygotes have formed or can it only really be classified as a zygote when enough mitotic divisions have occured and the cells have agglomorated into a morula? Which do you think it is?
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Lol. Oops!
 
Mott the Hoople said:
No I don't but that does bring up some interesting questions. When does the the zygote actually form? Does it form immeadiatly upon fertilization? Does it occur when the first diploid cell forms after the fusion of the haploid oocyte and the spermatazoa but only while the two genomes exist seperately? Is it formed when the pronucleii develop within the zona pelucida but prior to nuclear fusion? Is it formed when nuclear fusion has occurred or does it only become a zygote after the first mitotic division has occurred? If so, when the blastomeres develop does that mean one or two zygotes have formed or can it only really be classified as a zygote when enough mitotic divisions have occured and the cells have agglomorated into a morula? Which do you think it is?
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Whats your point ? We are all well aware that there are a variety of names and labels given to identify the various stages of human growth and development.....
Including baby, newborn, adolescent, pre-teen, teenager, young adult, adult, middle-age, old age, senior, etc.....

Once life starts with the living, dividing cell, it continues to grow, develop, mature and age until finally the bodys organs fail enough to no longer support life and it dies....

At what stage of life these labels are arbitrarily applied is irrelevant.
 
Rana said:
This needs to stop, for a person who has a masters in theology, you didn't learn much from it. I find this offensive and so should the mods.
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did you say anything when he did the same thing to me?.....no, so keep your mouth shut now......
 
Mott the Hoople said:
When does the the zygote actually form? Does it form immeadiatly upon fertilization? Does it occur when the first diploid cell forms after the fusion of the haploid oocyte and the spermatazoa but only while the two genomes exist seperately? Is it formed when the pronucleii develop within the zona pelucida but prior to nuclear fusion? Is it formed when nuclear fusion has occurred or does it only become a zygote after the first mitotic division has occurred? If so, when the blastomeres develop does that mean one or two zygotes have formed or can it only really be classified as a zygote when enough mitotic divisions have occured and the cells have agglomorated into a morula? Which do you think it is?
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logically, from the polarization of the egg, when all further sperm are rejected.......but, since that happens so quickly it would be unmeasurable in any individual case.....why not simply mark it from the attachment to the uterine wall?.....
 
Rana said:
St. Thomas Aquinas, along with many early church father thought there was a fully formed human in male sperm, a homunculus. It is why the church had such backwards thinking on masturbation and other sexual acts. They did not understand biology either and how both sperm and the egg played a part in conception.

There are some enlightened bishops and church hierarchy that are trying to change the thinking of the church, but it is a long, slow process.

It is some comical and disgusting reading concerning the early churches teachings on abortion, contraception and masturbation. Infantcide was a wide spread practice of early humans as was abandonment.
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This is a bit of a stretch. While that may have been the thought it was based on Genesis 38.

In that chapter there was one dude (Onan) who, as he should, married his brother's (Er's) widow (Tamar). Er was killed for being "wicked" in God's site. Now Onan was selfish and a bit of an ass, he didn't want to father kids who carried on the name of his brother (which was his duty, the kids wouldn't just carry on the name of his brother but were supposed to support the widow in her old age) so he would use her for pleasure but dump his sperm onto the ground (pullout method of birth control.) The end of that story is that God killed him off for his selfishness. Later in the same chapter Judah (father of Er and Onan) went to town to shear his sheep, Tamar took off her widow's clothes and put on a veil (shrine prostitutes wore veils) and went and sold herself to Judah as a prostitute, for this he was going to pay her one goat from his flock and in "pledge" he gave her his seal, staff, and something else that I can't remember. When he sent the goat to his friend in town to get his stuff back this "shrine prostitute" had disappeared and he was unable to find her and get his stuff back. This was, of course, because she had returned to her father's house and put back on her widow's robes... She gave birth to twins, one of which is named in Christ's family line. Neither of these were "wicked" in God's eyes and they continued living without issue...

There were treatises written (and sermons given) basically stating it was better to "cast your seed into the belly of a whore" than it was to "spill your seed on the ground" because God punished the selfish man with death. If you read the stories without the context of the reason Tamar should have been passed to Shelah (Judah's third son) and Onan's real "crime" in God's eyes you may "find" the wrong story.

Wrong lesson though. It wasn't the "spilling" that was the problem, it was the fact that he was selfish. And Judah and Tamar weren't guilty of an "unnatural" sin and it actually rectified the fact that his son Onan was unwilling to do his duty and Judah was guilty of not passing the widow on to his next son Shelah...

Heterosexual sex itself was considered "natural" sin, so long as it was possible to procreate, while pleasure from sexual act (masturbation, sodomy, pulling out) was an "unnatural" sin. It was considered "better" to sin naturally than unnaturally.
 
Damocles said:
This is a bit of a stretch. While that may have been the thought it was based on Genesis 38.

In that chapter there was one dude (Onan) who, as he should, married his brother's (Er's) widow (Tamar). Er was killed for being "wicked" in God's site. Now Onan was selfish and a bit of an ass, he didn't want to father kids who carried on the name of his brother (which was his duty, the kids wouldn't just carry on the name of his brother but were supposed to support the widow in her old age) so he would use her for pleasure but dump his sperm onto the ground (pullout method of birth control.) The end of that story is that God killed him off for his selfishness. Later in the same chapter Judah (father of Er and Onan) went to town to shear his sheep, Tamar took off her widow's clothes and put on a veil (shrine prostitutes wore veils) and went and sold herself to Judah as a prostitute, for this he was going to pay her one goat from his flock and in "pledge" he gave her his seal, staff, and something else that I can't remember. When he sent the goat to his friend in town to get his stuff back this "shrine prostitute" had disappeared and he was unable to find her and get his stuff back. This was, of course, because she had returned to her father's house and put back on her widow's robes... She gave birth to twins, one of which is named in Christ's family line. Neither of these were "wicked" in God's eyes and they continued living without issue...

There were treatises written (and sermons given) basically stating it was better to "cast your seed into the belly of a whore" than it was to "spill your seed on the ground" because God punished the selfish man with death. If you read the stories without the context of the reason Tamar should have been passed to Shelah (Judah's third son) and Onan's real "crime" in God's eyes you may "find" the wrong story.

Wrong lesson though. It wasn't the "spilling" that was the problem, it was the fact that he was selfish. And Judah and Tamar weren't guilty of an "unnatural" sin and it actually rectified the fact that his son Onan was unwilling to do his duty and Judah was guilty of not passing the widow on to his next son Shelah...

Heterosexual sex itself was considered "natural" sin, so long as it was possible to procreate, while pleasure from sexual act (masturbation, sodomy, pulling out) was an "unnatural" sin. It was considered "better" to sin naturally than unnaturally.
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The church'steaching on masturbation has changed throughout the ages. Oman was the Old Testament version and it was about selfishness. Onan did not want to follow custom. Bad Onan.

Then came Tertullion, Augustine, and Aquinas, oh and Luther, too.
 
PostmodernProphet said:
logically, from the polarization of the egg, when all further sperm are rejected.......but, since that happens so quickly it would be unmeasurable in any individual case.....why not simply mark it from the attachment to the uterine wall?.....
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Well those are honest answers. Their both problematic in that at the point of polarization you still have two distinct genomes within the cell. By the time implantation occurs you're well past the beginning of the blastocyst phase. The text book answer is when when membranes of the pro-nucleii disolve and the two genomes sets allign along the cells pole and the chromosomes begin to diffuse into one genome is when a zygote has formed. Though one could legitimately argue though that the zygote phase does not begin till the first mitotic division as that is the point of cellular viability and not fertilization. It often happens that after fertilization nuclear fusion either does not occurr or when it does a non-viable genome occurs resulting in a residual body instead of a viable zygote.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
Well those are honest answers. Their both problematic in that at the point of polarization you still have two distinct genomes within the cell. By the time implantation occurs you're well past the beginning of the blastocyst phase. The text book answer is when when membranes of the pro-nucleii disolve and the two genomes sets allign along the cells pole and the chromosomes begin to diffuse into one genome is when a zygote has formed. Though one could legitimately argue though that the zygote phase does not begin till the first mitotic division as that is the point of cellular viability and not fertilization. It often happens that after fertilization nuclear fusion either does not occurr or when it does a non-viable genome occurs resulting in a residual body instead of a viable zygote.
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lol.....I'll admit your showing improvement from the post where you were thinking a sperm and a zygote were equals..........let's fast forward to the fourth day......for the sake of progress on the issue, I'm willing to concede your right to abort the unborn on any day up until the time a woman actually realizes she's pregnant......it's after that when things become problematic.......that ought to eliminate, oh say, 99.999999999% of abortions, don't you think?......
 
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