Powell strikes back!


Hey mastermind....do you think that such concepts as right to trial, free speech, equality regardless of financial or social status under the law, were "conservative" values when the country was created by the Founding Fathers? The Crown of England didn't think so. God, sometimes I truly believe that you are that fucking stupid, rather than just another insipidly stubborn neocon stooge. :chesh:
Again, modern conservatism is exactly like 18th century American liberalism. Do you deny this?
 
Originally Posted by Taichiliberal

Hey mastermind....do you think that such concepts as right to trial, free speech, equality regardless of financial or social status under the law, were "conservative" values when the country was created by the Founding Fathers? The Crown of England didn't think so. God, sometimes I truly believe that you are that fucking stupid, rather than just another insipidly stubborn neocon stooge.

And here I was led to understand that the Magna Carta was originally started in 1215.

Silly me.

The Magna Carta was a nice shot against the monarchy by a specific class of SUBJECTS, and set the format for habeus corpus....but the Declaration of Indenpendence and then the Constitution totally negate monarchial rule FOR SELF RULED CITIZENS OF A NEW NATION, regardless of class status. Pretty liberal stuff.

You're not silly, just stupid to think you undercut/disprove what I write by stating moot points.
 
Originally Posted by Taichiliberal

Hey mastermind....do you think that such concepts as right to trial, free speech, equality regardless of financial or social status under the law, were "conservative" values when the country was created by the Founding Fathers? The Crown of England didn't think so. God, sometimes I truly believe that you are that fucking stupid, rather than just another insipidly stubborn neocon stooge.



The Magna Carta was a nice shot against the monarchy by a specific class of SUBJECTS, and set the format for habeus corpus....but the Declaration of Indenpendence and then the Constitution totally negate monarchial rule FOR SELF RULED CITIZENS OF A NEW NATION, regardless of class status. Pretty liberal stuff.

You're not silly, just stupid to think you undercut/disprove what I write by stating moot points.

So it means nothng??
 

Hey mastermind....do you think that such concepts as right to trial, free speech, equality regardless of financial or social status under the law, were "conservative" values when the country was created by the Founding Fathers? The Crown of England didn't think so. God, sometimes I truly believe that you are that fucking stupid, rather than just another insipidly stubborn neocon stooge. :chesh:

Yes and keep in mind that our founding fathers were far left liberals. In fact they were radical revolutionaries. That's about as far to the left as you can get.
 
Again, modern conservatism is exactly like 18th century American liberalism. Do you deny this?

Categorically.

"Modern conservatism" is an oxymoron. It's absolutely identical to the brand of laissez-faire conservatism of the late 19th century and damned near dead on for the form of late 18th century monarchical conservatism that our founding fathers rebelled against. In fact there are so many precedents in history for southern conservatism (modern conservatism as your calling it) that it aint even funny. You essentially represent the type of oligarchical conservatism that dates back to the ancient Roman Republic. You're kidding your self to think that southern conservatism even remotely compares to the ideals of the American Revolution. I mean that's just plain laughable!
 
You have crossed a line that shall not be crossed. It is equivalent to terrorists attacking women and children instead of soldiers who are armed and trained to defend themselves. Welcome to the lowest of the low.

Then let's draw swords.

Nobody is afraid of your punk ass.

Fuck with the bull and you'll get the horn ..

original.jpg


:)
 
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Categorically.

"Modern conservatism" is an oxymoron. It's absolutely identical to the brand of laissez-faire conservatism of the late 19th century and damned near dead on for the form of late 18th century monarchical conservatism that our founding fathers rebelled against. In fact there are so many precedents in history for southern conservatism (modern conservatism as your calling it) that it aint even funny. You essentially represent the type of oligarchical conservatism that dates back to the ancient Roman Republic. You're kidding your self to think that southern conservatism even remotely compares to the ideals of the American Revolution. I mean that's just plain laughable!
You focus only on the economic aspect of the more extreme neocon movement. Many correctly point out that conservatives have become factionalized today, and laissez-faire is one of the reasons. The mainstream conservative movement of today supports reasonable regulation of business, but draws the line of acceptable regulation to a far more limited role than today's liberal.

But there are other aspects of the conservative philosophy in addition to (some would say more important than) economic policies, such as severe limitation of government, minimal taxation, putting people's rights above government purpose, adhering to the word of the Constitution, being willing to suggest the possibility of armed revolt, and demanding the maintenance of those constitutional rights if such a need becomes real.

I do not see the average "liberal" of today supporting any of the principles of the founders with the sole exception of being (verbally) opposed to oligarchical type economic structures (while in reality supporting a policy of bolstering the failed oligarchical structure with taxpayer money). The liberalism of today is unrecognizeable compared to the liberalism of the founders.

Both Thomas Jefferson and Alexander Hamilton, who were on opposing sides with regard to federalizing under the Constitution, would have vehemently opposed the economic policies of today's liberalism. They would have been horrified to be associated with the centralized, massively intrusive federal government supported by today's liberal philosophy. Jefferson would likely have advocated shooting a federal court justice who thinks it is her job to "set policy". I hate to think what they'd have to say to the "reasonable gun laws" gun grabbers.

I do not agree with the extreme degree of laissez-faire conservatism is leaning in economic matters. However I also disagree with the even more extreme degree liberals lean on economic matters.

I do agree with the principles, supported by today's conservative faction and opposed by today's liberal faction, of returning to a Constitutionally limited federal government, paying a whole lot more attention to the Bill of Rights, including both the 9th and 10th Amendments.

I disagree with the modern liberal principle of "reasonable limits" placed on constitutional rights via preemptive regulation and laws. The "limits" of a right is simply that one may not deliberately or knowingly cause harm to another then hide behind constitutional protections to avoid responsibility for their harmful actions. "Reasonable" limits on rights by written law is the exact action of government the BOR was written to prevent, yet a policy fully supported by modern liberals.

In short, the laissez-faire economic faction of today's conservative movement are counter to the views of the founders - who were, indeed, revolutionary liberals by definition (But NOT "extreme leftist" by today's definition of left v right) on that specific issue. However, the modern liberal movement of today support not only economic principles counter to the founders, but also views of federalism, centralized economic authority, "limited" rights, etc. that are quite the opposite of the principles which were used when writing the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and (especially) the Bill of Rights.
 
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You focus only on the economic aspect of the more extreme neocon movement. Many correctly point out that conservatives have become factionalized today, and laissez-faire is one of the reasons. The mainstream conservative movement of today supports reasonable regulation of business, but draws the line of acceptable regulation to a far more limited role than today's liberal.

However reality contradicts your assertion. Modern conservative claims of "reasonable regulations" ends up being an excuse to completely undermine and gut regulations that we depend on to protect the public interest from human health and safety right on down to commerce and consumer rights. Give conservatives an inch and they will manipulate that to undermine the whole shebang. Give a conservative a cost benefit analysis and they will use it to undermine and destroy critical regulations and do so purely against the public interest and solely for the interest of a few powerful and/or wealthy individuals. So such a claim by conservatives is laughable hypocracy based upon their actions.

But there are other aspects of the conservative philosophy in addition to (some would say more important than) economic policies, such as severe limitation of government, minimal taxation, putting people's rights above government purpose, adhering to the word of the Constitution, being willing to suggest the possibility of armed revolt, and demanding the maintenance of those constitutional rights if such a need becomes real.
And what do we get from these claims? We get more conservative hypocracy. Severe limitations in government base upon conservative actions means increased autocracy, an erosion of our civil rights, forced intellectual conformity and corrupt, inept and incompetent governance. The call for minimal taxation really means class warfare by decreasing taxation on the wealth and shifting that burdon of taxation by increasing taxation on the middle and professional classes. Not only that but no greater threat exist to our constitutional freedoms then the conservative movement. Conservatives talk a good game but give them power and the constitution became a piece of paper they wipe there ass on.

I do not see the average "liberal" of today supporting any of the principles of the founders with the sole exception of being (verbally) opposed to oligarchical type economic structures (while in reality supporting a policy of bolstering the failed oligarchical structure with taxpayer money). The liberalism of today is unrecognizeable compared to the liberalism of the founders.

That's because the conservative movement is so brain dead about what freedom and liberty actually are that they have become just words to them. Watch some one actually practice freedom and liberty oh dear lord the first persons you hear screaming and howling for blood are conservatives. Who maintained slavery in our nation for 100 years? Conservatives! Who enforced Jim Crow, segregation and racial discrimination for another 100 years? Conservatives! Who howls the first, the loudest and longest and most hatefully when American gay's try to practice their God given rights by practicing their freedom and liberty to marry each other? Conservatives! More conservative hypocracy as conservatives have no idea what freedom or liberty means. It's something that only applies to them. Not anyone else.

Both Thomas Jefferson and Alexander Hamilton, who were on opposing sides with regard to federalizing under the Constitution, would have vehemently opposed the economic policies of today's liberalism. They would have been horrified to be associated with the centralized, massively intrusive federal government supported by today's liberal philosophy. Jefferson would likely have advocated shooting a federal court justice who thinks it is her job to "set policy". I hate to think what they'd have to say to the "reasonable gun laws" gun grabbers.
That's just ideological non-sense. Jefferson and Hamilton lived in a sparsely populated agricultral state. They didn't have to worry about feeding, housing and educating 300 million people. Conservatives (actually your reactionaries) want to take this country back in time to an imaginary time that never existed and would not have worked even when we were an agrarian society, let alone a modern industrial one. You try to make an ideological argument based upon our founding fathers but the only thing you prove with such reactionary ideology is to demonstrate conservative ineptitude for governance and why you do not and have not earned the public trust to govern this nation.

I do not agree with the extreme degree of laissez-faire conservatism is leaning in economic matters. However I also disagree with the even more extreme degree liberals lean on economic matters.

What extreme degrees? If liberals are so fucking extreme how comes it was conservatives who just damned near crashed our economy? How comes all our greatest periods of economic growth and expansion have all come under liberal or moderate administrations? How comes all our greatest economic disasters have all occurred under conservative administration? More ideological non-sense that doesn't hold any water in face of the facts and is just more evidence of why conservatives do not have the publics trust when it comes to governance.

I do agree with the principles, supported by today's conservative faction and opposed by today's liberal faction, of returning to a Constitutionally limited federal government, paying a whole lot more attention to the Bill of Rights, including both the 9th and 10th Amendments.
That's a complete and total strawman pulled out of Rush Limbaugh's ass. Liberals invented constitutional democracy and conservatives just can't get it through their thick heads that limited government means limiting the power of government. Not undermining it till that it's so completely incompetent that they cant' be trusted to zip their own pants with out cutting off their own pricks! No, this is just more evidence of why conservatives do not and have not earned the the publics trust and why liberals and moderates do earn the public trust.

I disagree with the modern liberal principle of "reasonable limits" placed on constitutional rights via preemptive regulation and laws. The "limits" of a right is simply that one may not deliberately or knowingly cause harm to another then hide behind constitutional protections to avoid responsibility for their harmful actions. "Reasonable" limits on rights by written law is the exact action of government the BOR was written to prevent, yet a policy fully supported by modern liberals.

What an utter bull shit strawman. The only one I've seen placing limits on peoples rights are authoritarian conservatives who make a complete mockery of the constitution by torturing people and throwing them in prison with out charging them. No one uses the US Constitution like a worhless piece of toilet paper like conservatives do. The only rights conservatives care about are their own and FUCK EVEYONE ELSE! They have done it time and time again as I've listed above.

In short, the laissez-faire economic faction of today's conservative movement are counter to the views of the founders - who were, indeed, revolutionary liberals by definition (But NOT "extreme leftist" by today's definition of left v right) on that specific issue. However, the modern liberal movement of today support not only economic principles counter to the founders, but also views of federalism, centralized economic authority, "limited" rights, etc. that are quite the opposite of the principles which were used when writing the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and (especially) the Bill of Rights.
Like hell they weren't extreme leftist. They were radical revolutionaries. It dont' get no farther to the left then that. You keep throwing one strawman after another after another. I'm no socialist and I sure as hell believe in capitalism but don't piss up wind and tell me it's raining. Conservative economics stand for an aristocracy/oligarchy of the monied few against the rest of the peoples of this nation. There is no limit to their greed, corruption and hypocracy. The facts just don't bear up to your ideological claims because by every material measure we, as a nation, have always prospered more under liberal governance while most of our economic catastrophes have conservatives at the root cause.

You claims just simply don't match up with the facts.
 
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However reality contradicts your assertion. Modern conservative claims of "reasonable regulations" ends up being an excuse to completely undermine and gut regulations that we depend on to protect the public interest from human health and safety right on down to commerce and consumer rights. Give conservatives an inch and they will manipulate that to undermine the whole shebang. Give a conservative a cost benefit analysis and they will use it to undermine and destroy critical regulations and do so purely against the public interest and solely for the interest of a few powerful and/or wealthy individuals. So such a claim by conservatives is laughable hypocracy based upon their actions.


And what do we get from these claims? We get more conservative hypocracy. Severe limitations in government base upon conservative actions means increased autocracy, an erosion of our civil rights, forced intellectual conformity and corrupt, inept and incompetent governance. The call for minimal taxation really means class warfare by decreasing taxation on the wealth and shifting that burdon of taxation by increasing taxation on the middle and professional classes. Not only that but no greater threat exist to our constitutional freedoms then the conservative movement. Conservatives talk a good game but give them power and the constitution became a piece of paper they wipe there ass on.



That's because the conservative movement is so brain dead about what freedom and liberty actually are that they have become just words to them. Watch some one actually practice freedom and liberty oh dear lord the first persons you hear screaming and howling for blood are conservatives. Who maintained slavery in our nation for 100 years? Conservatives! Who enforced Jim Crow, segregation and racial discrimination for another 100 years? Conservatives! Who howls the first, the loudest and longest and most hatefully when American gay's try to practice their God given rights by practicing their freedom and liberty to marry each other? Conservatives! More conservative hypocracy as conservatives have no idea what freedom or liberty means. It's something that only applies to them. Not anyone else.

That's just ideological non-sense. Jefferson and Hamilton lived in a sparsely populated agricultral state. They didn't have to worry about feeding, housing and educating 300 million people. Conservatives (actually your reactionaries) want to take this country back in time to an imaginary time that never existed and would not have worked even when we were an agrarian society, let alone a modern industrial one. You try to make an ideological argument based upon our founding fathers but the only thing you prove with such reactionary ideology is to demonstrate conservative ineptitude for governance and why you do not and have not earned the public trust to govern this nation.



What extreme degrees? If liberals are so fucking extreme how comes it was conservatives who just damned near crashed our economy? How comes all our greatest periods of economic growth and expansion have all come under liberal or moderate administrations? How comes all our greatest economic disasters have all occurred under conservative administration? More ideological non-sense that doesn't hold any water in face of the facts and is just more evidence of why conservatives do not have the publics trust when it comes to governance.

That's a complete and total strawman pulled out of Rush Limbaugh's ass. Liberals invented constitutional democracy and conservatives just can't get it through their thick heads that limited government means limiting the power of government. Not undermining it till that it's so completely incompetent that they cant' be trusted to zip their own pants with out cutting off their own pricks! No, this is just more evidence of why conservatives do not and have not earned the the publics trust and why liberals and moderates do earn the public trust.



What an utter bull shit strawman. The only one I've seen placing limits on peoples rights are authoritarian conservatives who make a complete mockery of the constitution by torturing people and throwing them in prison with out charging them. No one uses the US Constitution like a worhless piece of toilet paper like conservatives do. The only rights conservatives care about are their own and FUCK EVEYONE ELSE! They have done it time and time again as I've listed above.


Like hell they weren't extreme leftist. They were radical revolutionaries. It dont' get no farther to the left then that. You keep throwing one strawman after another after another. I'm no socialist and I sure as hell believe in capitalism but don't piss up wind and tell me it's raining. Conservative economics stand for an aristocracy/oligarchy of the monied few against the rest of the peoples of this nation. There is no limit to their greed, corruption and hypocracy. The facts just don't bear up to your ideological claims because by every material measure we, as a nation, have always prospered more under liberal governance while most of our economic catastrophes have conservatives at the root cause.

You claims just simply don't match up with the facts.

:hand::thup:
 
Already answered you, genius. Obviously, you can't disprove what I wrote, so you just parrot your useless dodge. Carry on.
Actually, you are the Artful Dodger here. Here's my question, followed by your previous "answer":

...modern conservatism is exactly like 18th century American liberalism. Do you deny this?
...do you think that such concepts as right to trial, free speech, equality regardless of financial or social status under the law, were "conservative" values when the country was created by the Founding Fathers?
Under the modern definition of conservatism, they were. Yet you can't admit that.
 
Categorically.

"Modern conservatism" is an oxymoron. It's absolutely identical to the brand of laissez-faire conservatism of the late 19th century and damned near dead on for the form of late 18th century monarchical conservatism that our founding fathers rebelled against. In fact there are so many precedents in history for southern conservatism (modern conservatism as your calling it) that it aint even funny. You essentially represent the type of oligarchical conservatism that dates back to the ancient Roman Republic. You're kidding your self to think that southern conservatism even remotely compares to the ideals of the American Revolution. I mean that's just plain laughable!
You are obviously unfamiliar with the term of "modern conservatism".
 
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