Pope Francis Says NATO Started War in Ukraine by ‘Barking at Putin’s Door’

BartenderElite said:
"Predicate" is just another word for "lame excuse."

This is one man's war. NATO didn't start this war.
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Dummkopf scours Qanon sites all day/night looking for someone who agrees with his hatred for NATO and the U.S..

He's quoting the Pope? I can't see the OP
 
BartenderElite said:
The Ukraine is a free, independent & sovereign nation.

Who they want to ally with, and what organizations they want to join, are up to them. Putin has zero say. He's a mass murderer, and international outlaw.
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Manafort is the reason that Ukraine isn't in NATO. Putin literally paid him tens of millions of dollars to install a pro Putin puppet govt. in Ukraine.

Which is the reason that Ukraine wasn't eligible for NATO inclusion
 
anonymoose said:
I have no idea what a win looks like to either side but whatever it is will not be final.
There will be long term simmering resentment that will no doubt raise it’s ugly head in the future.
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Nobody 'wins' because Putin has destroyed Ukraine's infrastructure. Russia loses because Putin will be removed from power, and it will take major concessions by the next wingnut to allow Russia to participate in the world's economy again.

Ukraine will be fine. They will indeed become part of NATO, as Putin has shown that it's necessary.

He's as incompetent as trump.
 
anonymoose said:
There will be one eventually, of that I have no doubt. In my lifetime? Won’t predict that. But I predict the initial one would be limited then stopped after both sides see the insanity of it.
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When I was a kid I was convinced that you are correct.

I seriously doubt that now. At least not because Russia started it. I can see the Taliban getting Pakistan's nukes, and playing with fire.
 
BartenderElite said:
Always w/ the ad homs.

So, what concessions are you willing to give an international outlaw/mass murderer?
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Putin gets to evacuate Ukraine in toto, including his illegal occupation of the southern region.

In exchange, the sanctions are lifted once Putin is removed from office.
 
anonymoose said:
He might settle for permanent annexation of territory now controlled by Russia. The Donbas and I’d speculate all of Uk along the Black Sea to Moldova .
Then Moldova would be easy pickings.
I seriously doubt Zelenskyy would go for that.
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Nor should he. You don't typically do well when you 'negotiate' from a position of weakness.

Putin is impotent. Sure...he murders women/children with long range missiles, but otherwise he's getting his ass kicked.
 
dukkha said:
yet the war just started. why not 5, or ten year ago?
Because NATO expansion and heavy weaponization of Ukraine became the threat matrix to Russia
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It did start ten years ago and 14 years ago when Putin invaded Georgia, Crimea, and Donbass. This has been going on for years.

Russians nationalists have believed Ukraine, Belarus, Moldava, and probably Khazakstan and Georgia are part of Holy Russia.

And they have thought that for 300 years.

NATO does not effect that calculus.
 
Cypress said:
It did start ten years ago and 14 years ago when Putin invaded Georgia, Crimea, and Donbass. This has been going on for years.

Russians nationalists have believed Ukraine, Belarus, Moldava, and probably Khazakstan and Georgia are part of Holy Russia.

And they have thought that for 300 years.

NATO does not effect that calculus.
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Crimea was 2014 and it was needed to secure Sevastpol access after the Euromaidan
Donbass was never invaded by Russian regulars until after this war started.
That leaves Georgia - hardly "reconstituting the USSR"

I notice you completely dismiss NATO shenanigans in the Black Sea, or bombers along Russia coast
Or making Ukraine into a MAP partner in 2008
Oh but thats' the west expansionism? and it's noble unlike Putin

 
anonymoose said:
It’s Uk’s call. Not the US or NATO.
They wouldn’t settle for what Putin wants anyway. They’d rather die than let go of such a large swath of their country.
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well they are doing a good job of getting their country pulverized.. every once in awhile Zelensky calls for talks with Russia -when he does we just dump more weapons in his lap
So is it really the Uk call when NATO feeds the proxy (or actual war) against Russia?
this year so far:
200 million
1.3 billion
and Biden wants 33 billion more -and that's just the USA -not including NATO
~~

as to large swaths - you do know Donbas is a war zone since like 2015?
The people there are overwhelmingly in favor of separation from Kyiv - they tried for autonomy
but Kyiv would not do it

As the war grinds on who knows what they will settle for? - but the thing I can guarantee is if we keep going after Russia proper and egging on Zelensky instead of pursuing peace..there isn't going to be even talks
 
Althea said:
Dummkopf scours Qanon sites all day/night looking for someone who agrees with his hatred for NATO and the U.S..

He's quoting the Pope? I can't see the OP
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I can't see his shit either but I can sure smell it. I can almost guarantee it's not on the up and up.
 
anonymoose said:
There will be one eventually, of that I have no doubt. In my lifetime? Won’t predict that. But I predict the initial one would be limited then stopped after both sides see the insanity of it.
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i think it won't actually happen. not even a phase one. its too dumb.
 
dukkha said:
feel that before going to Kyiv, I must go to Moscow,” he told Corriere Della Sera in an interview that ran Tuesday. But the meeting would not exactly be to condemn Putin, based on what he told the paper. He said that the real “scandal” of Putin’s war is “NATO barking at Russia’s door,” which he said caused the Kremlin to “react badly and unleash the conflict.”
In Ukraine, it seems that it was others who created the conflict. I am pessimistic but we must do everything possible to stop the war.”

https://www.yahoo.com/news/pope-francis-says-nato-started-135952616.html
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The Pope says the Russians are learning that 'their tanks are useless' in Ukraine

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...AAWTJYu?cvid=1422b00826ce4ed3b85a6c644b722480
 
Wartime equations about the risk of using nuclear actions — which are never simple — have been complicated by “tactical” warheads that Russia has stockpiled. These smaller nuclear weapons, far less powerful than the ones the United States dropped on the Japanese cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki during World War II, are designed to be used on the battlefield.

Many experts warn against underestimating these weapons of mass destruction, which could cause widespread casualties from radiation alone, which could not be narrowly contained.

The smaller size of the weapons, some experts fear, could break down the nuclear taboo. Russia is believed to have more than 1,500 of them.

Sarah Bidgood, director of the Eurasia program at James Martin Center for Nonproliferation Studies in Monterey, said it was hard to estimate the level of risk that Russia would use a tactical nuke in Ukraine, but that it was clear Russia relied on its nuclear weapons, including tactical weapons, to give it flexibility in managing the risk of escalation.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...rried-about-russias-tactical-nuclear-weapons/
Iskander-medium.jpg



A ‘small’ nuclear missile

The 9K720 Iskander missile system, known to NATO forces as the SS-26, is capable of delivering “tactical” nuclear weapons as well as standard explosive warheads. The Russians appear to have Iskanders deployed in Ukraine.

The 9K720 Iskander missile system, known to NATO forces as the SS-26, is capable of delivering “tactical” nuclear weapons as well as standard explosive warheads. The Russians appear to have Iskanders deployed in Ukraine.

9M723 Ballistic Missile
Range: Approx. 300 miles
The booster rocket stage and the warhead
are both maneuverable in flight for precise targeting
 
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