Penny used a long known pro wrestling "sleeper" hold on Neely.

[Damocles]

You'd rather fling shade than discuss solutions. That's your choice and it's cool. Not interested though.

Says the person actually slinging shade and dismissing my solution. Telling you that I reject the "shade" label you put on someone (you know, "Saint Ronnie", while does underline shade has been cast) it is certainly not "slinging shade" it is pointing out that you have taken this time to "sling shade" as you put it. That's your choice, and you say you think it is cool. I do not.

We are having the wrong discussion here, this isn't about some intersectional victim nonsense, it is about the US simply ignoring the mentally ill for too long. I agree, we need to fix it, but simply saying "Saint Ronnie" didn't "fix" it is ignoring that the Congress at the time was Democrat run and that this was a National Conversation, as the Nation learned what we had done to these people.

You want this all to be "Saint Ronnie's" fault, I get that. I reject that whole idea. The makeup of the 96th Congress that passed the law that did this was 58 Ds 1 I (voted with the Democrats that "independent thinker") and 41 Rs... and the House was 243 D, 191 R, and 1 C (voted with the Rs). Blaming this one on "Saint Ronnie" while ignoring the folks that wrote and passed the law is absurd. The Ds controlled both houses and passed the danged law. Yes "Saint Ronnie" signed it, but your pretense that this was somehow a "Saint Ronnie" who defunded this when the purse strings are controlled by Congress is a sad attempt at political blame.

The reality was, at that time, we were just finding out the level of damage wreaked upon the most vulnerable of our society by the current system, it had to end, it was ended... not by "Saint Ronnie" but as a result of National outrage.

Now, that we are "past" your attempt to "cast shade" on one person you dislike. Can we get the conversation back to getting these people help rather than ignoring them until someone puts them in choke holds because they are threatening the lives of people on a subway car?

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

Says the person actually slinging shade and dismissing my solution. Telling you that I reject the "shade" label you put on someone (you know, "Saint Ronnie", while does underline shade has been cast) it is certainly not "slinging shade" it is pointing out that you have taken this time to "sling shade" as you put it. That's your choice, and you say you think it is cool. I do not.

We are having the wrong discussion here, this isn't about some intersectional victim nonsense, it is about the US simply ignoring the mentally ill for too long. I agree, we need to fix it, but simply saying "Saint Ronnie" didn't "fix" it is ignoring that the Congress at the time was Democrat run and that this was a National Conversation, as the Nation learned what we had done to these people.

You want this all to be "Saint Ronnie's" fault, I get that. I reject that whole idea. The makeup of the 96th Congress that passed the law that did this was 58 Ds 1 I (voted with the Democrats that "independent thinker") and 41 Rs... and the House was 243 D, 191 R, and 1 C (voted with the Rs). Blaming this one on "Saint Ronnie" while ignoring the folks that wrote and passed the law is absurd. The Ds controlled both houses and passed the danged law. Yes "Saint Ronnie" signed it, but your pretense that this was somehow a "Saint Ronnie" who defunded this when the purse strings are controlled by Congress is a sad attempt at political blame.

The reality was, at that time, we were just finding out the level of damage wreaked upon the most vulnerable of our society by the current system, it had to end, it was ended... not by "Saint Ronnie" but as a result of National outrage.

Now, that we are "past" your attempt to "cast shade" on one person you dislike. Can we get the conversation back to getting these people help rather than ignoring them until someone puts them in choke holds because they are threatening the lives of people on a subway car?

You certainly got triggered over the "St. Ronnie" comment, didn't you? It's managed to completely derail your train of thought to where you can't focus on anything else.

I've asked you several times what your solution is other than "help these people," as in providing some specifics. Back to St. Ronnie you go. So fine, you have no solutions. You could have saved a lot of electrons just admitting that.

You replied to this (Post #47) with another litany about "St. Ronnie," but totally avoided answering the questions I posed. Either you want to discuss this, or you don't. Ronnie's dead. Let's move on. We've had 40 years to fix it since, but we haven't. Why not?

Merely closing down an institution where abuse is occurring is no solution. Why not fix it? Do you think there's a will among voters to fund mental health care, including inpatient facilities? If the proposed resident of such a facility is not a danger to others or to himself, do we have the legal means to involuntarily commit them? Should we have that ability? There are a lot of questions on how to deal with this complex issue. So far we're damn short on solutions.

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

A freelance journalist just happened to be on the train....with his equipment. See...that's what bothers me.

"Freelance journalist" = some dip with a Twitter account and more than 300 followers.

 

[Damocles]

You certainly got triggered over the "St. Ronnie" comment, didn't you? It's managed to completely derail your train of thought to where you can't focus on anything else.

I've asked you several times what your solution is other than "help these people," as in providing some specifics. Back to St. Ronnie you go. So fine, you have no solutions. You could have saved a lot of electrons just admitting that.

You replied to this (Post #47) with another litany about "St. Ronnie," but totally avoided answering the questions I posed. Either you want to discuss this, or you don't. Ronnie's dead. Let's move on. We've had 40 years to fix it since, but we haven't. Why not?

Why not indeed? I asked you.... Why is your party talking "murder" rather than about helping these people? Your answer was to get all bent about the question rather than answer it.

The Rs are talking the wrong solutions too. But your party isn't even talking about any solutions at all, they're too busy preparing to prosecute one guy instead of proposing a solution.

I told you from the beginning, we are all having the wrong conversation. We still are.

Help us get the right people talking about actual solutions and we'll be going somewhere. Trying to blame it on "Saint Ronnie" or ignoring the path of attack your party is taking is certainly not leading to any solutions.

 

[Walt]

It's very very sad to see that anyone belives that this was intentional... and one of the reasons that he has so much support from the vast majority...If one person feels that way that's one too many...

Penny is charged with manslaughter, because the DA believes the death itself was unintentional, but clearly Penny did intend to put Neely in a chokehold. The question becomes whether a chokehold was justifiable as self defense or not.

Neely's only physical act was to throw his jacket on the ground, which is not justification for an attack. He did say in an angry voice the words, "I don't have food, I don't have a drink, I'm fed up. I don't mind going to jail and getting life in prison. I'm ready to die." Saying that he might go to prison for the rest of his life for what he is about to do does sort of imply he is planning violence. The question the jury will have to answer was whether a sort of implied meaning justifies a chokehold.

Before I make a decision, I would like to know how long the chokehold lasted. Then again, my decision is not really binding...

 

[Walt]

Mentally ill people can be both the guy who danced on the subway and on a different day (or even the same one if they are mentally ill enough) the guy who threatened to attack others on the subway and was unafraid of consequences.

The mentally ill can also be the guy who makes people feel uncomfortable, and is victim of an attack because of that. The difference between self defense and manslaughter against a mentally ill victim is whether what Neely said rises to the level that deadly force needs to be used against him.

Luckily, all witnesses agree on what he said. Unfortunately, what he said was not a clearly thought out thing.

 

[Walt]

wrestling is fake u stupid fuck...it didnt really put any wrestler to sleep

Professional wrestling is fake, but amateur wrestling is very real. Amateur wrestling bans all chokeholds, because it will kill people. Professional wrestling allows chokeholds, because the chokeholds are not really applied.

Penny definitely put Neely into a chokehold, and he definitely did it intentionally. The two unknowns was how tight was the chokehold, and for how long. The how long part will be known, and probably is already known by the police and DA.

What has to be decided was whether Neely's words makes a chokehold of that strength and for that period of time justifiable.

 

[Walt]

A freelance journalist just happened to be on the train....with his equipment. See...that's what bothers me.

These days almost everyone has video equipment with them all the time. It is called a smart cell phone, and about at least 90% of the people on the subway have one. As for being a freelance journalist/blogger/vlogger/poster/etc., more than half the people on the subway would call themselves one of those.

So I do not see what bothers Guille. What amazes me is there is only one video of this. A crowded subway in the middle of the day, I would expect multiple people to video a choking.

 

[Lightbringer]

These days almost everyone has video equipment with them all the time. It is called a smart cell phone, and about at least 90% of the people on the subway have one. As for being a freelance journalist/blogger/vlogger/poster/etc., more than half the people on the subway would call themselves one of those.

So I do not see what bothers Guille. What amazes me is there is only one video of this. A crowded subway in the middle of the day, I would expect multiple people to video a choking.

And you are why evil people still have some respect in this world, because you believe the "unlikely."

You suffer from Stockholm Syndrome.

 

[Walt]

you believe the "unlikely."

Everywhere I go, almost everyone has a smart cell phone like that which can take video like that. It hardly seems unlikely that someone on a subway would have a smart cell phone. This is 2023, not 2003.

 

[Lightbringer]

Everywhere I go, almost everyone has a smart cell phone like that which can take video like that. It hardly seems unlikely that someone on a subway would have a smart cell phone. This is 2023, not 2003.

Where do you go Walt? It's funny how many incidents in the news don't have clear video yet you're here saying it's common. I disagree, if it were there would be no mysteries at all.

 

[Walt]

Where do you go Walt?

This is seriously the first you have heard of smart cell phones?

It is something like 85% of people own a smartphone. That number is going to be higher in NYC. Subways are absolutely full of smartphones with cameras.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/219865/percentage-of-us-adults-who-own-a-smartphone/

Want to see Tucker Carlson fly fishing in Central Park (NYC)? This is not a joke, but rather an actual video taken of him on a cell phone by a "freelance journalist":

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/fQvBL1R5nNs

We live in bizarre times... I mean really bizarre.

 

[Hawkeye10]

This is seriously the first you have heard of smart cell phones?

It is something like 85% of people own a smartphone. That number is going to be higher in NYC. Subways are absolutely full of smartphones with cameras.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/219865/percentage-of-us-adults-who-own-a-smartphone/

Want to see Tucker Carlson fly fishing in Central Park (NYC)? This is not a joke, but rather an actual video taken of him on a cell phone by a "freelance journalist":

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/fQvBL1R5nNs

We live in bizarre times... I mean really bizarre.

HAVE u NOTICED that people dont generally believe you anymore?

 

[Lightbringer]

This is seriously the first you have heard of smart cell phones?

It is something like 85% of people own a smartphone. That number is going to be higher in NYC. Subways are absolutely full of smartphones with cameras.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/219865/percentage-of-us-adults-who-own-a-smartphone/

Want to see Tucker Carlson fly fishing in Central Park (NYC)? This is not a joke, but rather an actual video taken of him on a cell phone by a "freelance journalist":

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/fQvBL1R5nNs

We live in bizarre times... I mean really bizarre.

No, it's not the first time. I told you the problem I have with your statement...which you ignored. I accept your capitulation.

 

[Walt]

HAVE u NOTICED that people dont generally believe you anymore?

Well alt right posters do not believe me, because they do not believe reality.

It is a fact that almost everyone has a camera on them these days, and many people in NYC are eager to use it. It is a different time than when we were kids. Most of us accept the new reality, but the alt right is in denial.

 

[Hawkeye10]

Well alt right posters do not believe me, because they do not believe reality.

It is a fact that almost everyone has a camera on them these days, and many people in NYC are eager to use it. It is a different time than when we were kids. Most of us accept the new reality, but the alt right is in denial.

U need a new con....this one is threadbare.

 

[Lightbringer]

Well alt right posters do not believe me, because they do not believe reality.

It is a fact that almost everyone has a camera on them these days, and many people in NYC are eager to use it. It is a different time than when we were kids. Most of us accept the new reality, but the alt right is in denial.

No, you think that people are constantly taking video, you don't seem to think that the video taken isn't organic. You're a tool Walty.

 

[Walt]

No, you think that people are constantly taking video, you don't seem to think that the video taken isn't organic. You're a tool Walty.

You lost the debate, so now you have to come up with what I supposedly think. If you want to know what I think, just ask.

Clearly, the first 1 to 12 minutes of the choking were not recorded. That is not surprising, because it took time for Vazquez to fully realize what was happening, and the start recording. It is not surprising that Vazquez had his cell phone on him, because people usually travel with their cell phone. Nor is it surprising that his cell phone was able to record video, because most cell phones record video. It was not even surprising he recorded a man being choked after a few minutes of him being choked.

In this time and place, none of this is surprising.

It all happened slightly before 2:30pm, on the F train, so it was probably far more crowded before the subway was stopped for many minutes. It appears many people chose to leave the car, which makes sense. Still, I am surprised more people did not use their cell phones to record such an interesting event.

 

[Walt]

U need a new con....this one is threadbare.

It is sad that Hawkeye thinks the facts are just a con.

 

[Lightbringer]

You lost the debate, so now you have to come up with what I supposedly think. If you want to know what I think, just ask.

Clearly, the first 1 to 12 minutes of the choking were not recorded. That is not surprising, because it took time for Vazquez to fully realize what was happening, and the start recording. It is not surprising that Vazquez had his cell phone on him, because people usually travel with their cell phone. Nor is it surprising that his cell phone was able to record video, because most cell phones record video. It was not even surprising he recorded a man being choked after a few minutes of him being choked.

In this time and place, none of this is surprising.

It all happened slightly before 2:30pm, on the F train, so it was probably far more crowded before the subway was stopped for many minutes. It appears many people chose to leave the car, which makes sense. Still, I am surprised more people did not use their cell phones to record such an interesting event.

Why? Because you say so? Your circular reasoning means you win? This is why I don't respect you Walt.