Pathetic Pelosi... just PATHETIC....

You really do have difficulty with comprehension, don't you? There are plenty of times when a woman's life could be sacrificed. We've been over this.

Heart attack, stroke and eye and kidney problems from high blood pressure. Heart disease and stroke from high blood sugar (diabetes).

If you're going to discuss this in a mature manner at least do some research. Women can and do die from pregnancy and child birth. Who the hell has any right to force that on a woman? Who would decide the level of acceptable risk? Some jackass like yourself?

You expect a woman to go crawling to some committee which will decide what level of risk she must take? What do you have against women, anyway? Men trying to take control of a woman's reproductive system by calling a fertilized cell a human being. It's sick and perverted.

The only one lacking the capacity to comprehend what they read is you. As I stated, if the womans life is in danger, then the choice is hers. So do try to pull your head out of your ass long enough to comprehend that this time.

You simply want to create idiotic strawmen..... you should take lessons from Dung, at least his strawmen are more interesting.

It is not men that call a fertilized cell a human being it is SCIENCE that dictates that. Your wanting to ignore science so that you can continue to spout your ignorance is quite pathetic.
 
The only one lacking the capacity to comprehend what they read is you. As I stated, if the womans life is in danger, then the choice is hers. So do try to pull your head out of your ass long enough to comprehend that this time.

Why? Why should the choice to kill an innocent human being be decided by a human being with a defective body? Think! Just for a moment, think. Try to use every bit of logic you can muster and think. What kind of asinine conclusion is it to say a human being with a defective body has the right to kill another human being who is completely healthy and innocent? For the love of God, think!

It is not men that call a fertilized cell a human being it is SCIENCE that dictates that. Your wanting to ignore science so that you can continue to spout your ignorance is quite pathetic.

Science can determine if something is composed of human material. That's it. And while we're on this absurd subject of a unique individual here's something to wrap your tiny mind around.

"A child's genes are inherited from his or her parents, so when a 52-year-old woman from Boston had a completely different set of genes than two of her three children, the medical community was at a loss for an explanation. It took two years for doctors to conclude that she was a "human chimera," someone with two or more distinct sets of genes. For example, DNA extracted from the skin of a human chimera may be different from DNA in the blood. Chimerism -- named after a Greek monster called the chimera with the head of a lion, body of a goat and tail of a snake -- occurs during pregnancy when two embryos that would have resulted in fraternal twins fuse early on in the pregnancy, resulting in one baby with two separate sets of DNA. While some chimeras have two different eye colors, most lead normal lives and never realize their condition." (AOL Health)

So, what do we have here? Two unique human beings or two halves of two unique human beings or.....? Were you not the one going on about genes and suggesting I educate myself? I suggest you seek education because, quite frankly, you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

"Chimerism tends to occur very early in the embryonic development. It is often the result of two non-identical twin embryos merging together instead of growing on their own. Although the condition is very rare, with only about 35 people in the US being identified as having chimerism, it tends to get attention from popular media.

"There was one legal case involving a woman with chimerism, who was proven not to be the mother of her own children. Later discovery of embryonic cells with different DNA disproved the earlier DNA results."
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-chimerism.htm

"Jane's body was made up of two genetically distinct types of cells.
There was only one conclusion: Jane was a mixture of two different people.
Kruskall thinks the most likely explanation for this is that Jane's mother
conceived non-identical twin girls, who fused at an early stage of the
pregnancy to form a single embryo.

For some reason, cells from only one twin have come to dominate
in Jane's blood - the tissue used in tissue-typing. In Jane's other
tissues, however, including her ovaries, cells of both types live amicably
alongside each other,……"

http://www.katewerk.com/chimera.html

Oh, my. I guess we can flush your unique, individual human being argument. As you said previously. " it is SCIENCE that dictates". Well, science has dictated that Jane is composed of two different people. Not like being composed of a mommy egg and a daddy sperm but being composed of two unique, individual human beings that supposedly came into being at conception.

Does Jane get two SS numbers? If one human being is charged with DUI can the other still drive? If one Jane is sentenced to prison what about the other Jane? Do we cut the sentence in half because, well, only half a person really did commit the crime? Do we check the DNA of her finger to determine which individual human being pulled the trigger on the gun?

No doubt you'll have difficulty to comprehend and assimilate this information so I'll spell it out for you.

First, science/DNA/genes can determine if something is composed of human material but it can not determine if something is a human being.

Second, the undisputed fact a person can have two sets of DNA which resulted in science "proving" a mother did not bear her own children (cough, cough) should caution any rational person to not throw all their proverbial eggs in one basket when it comes to science proving an individual comes into existence at conception. If that was the case we could argue Jane is two individual, unique human beings (or is that "Jane are two individual, unique human beings).

We've just scratched the surface of genetics/human DNA/genes, relatively speaking. So, don't go flying off the handle and jumping on the DNA band wagon because you'll look like an ass. That's not to say you don't already look like one but why add to the image?



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The only one lacking the capacity to comprehend what they read is you. As I stated, if the womans life is in danger, then the choice is hers. So do try to pull your head out of your ass long enough to comprehend that this time.

You simply want to create idiotic strawmen..... you should take lessons from Dung, at least his strawmen are more interesting.

It is not men that call a fertilized cell a human being it is SCIENCE that dictates that. Your wanting to ignore science so that you can continue to spout your ignorance is quite pathetic.
 
The reasoning rests with the safety of the mother. If a mother will die because she remains pregnant then she has an argument for her safety. Her position becomes one of more than a mere location of another human being, but one of literal survival.

So, let's say a person requires heart medication or some other medication without which they will die. Using the argument a woman has the right to kill the embryo/fetus due to a matter of survival suppose one can not afford their medication and the pharmacist refuses to give it to them. Why can't the person requiring the medication kill the pharmacist and retrieve the medication? If one can kill an innocent human being in order for themselves to survive it must be accepted across the board.

As to rape victims? I agree that the moral argument of life VS life fails the test. Still, since less than 1% of all abortions are due to rape I am also a pragmatist and could leave the moral argument to the state. That 97% of abortions occur because of a lifestyle convenience is unacceptable and I will always argue against this abortion as birth control attitude.

As a pragmatist consider the money that went into stopping DUI and cigarette smoking. The free programs set up by governments to stop smoking. The breathalyzer machines at exits in clubs and casinos.

Until we, as a society, take sex out of the closet we'll never stop unwanted pregnancies. How can we when some families won't even discuss it? How can we when parents petition schools not to include sex education?

The problem, as I see it, is some arguments are so outlandish people completely ignore them. It's like that movie about pot smoking; Reefer Madness. If we showed that to kids today they'd laugh us out of the room.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1jB7RBGVGk"]YouTube - Reefer Madness Trailer Great marijuana movie[/ame]

Taking an authoritative, prohibitive position accomplishes nothing. Abortions have declined and I believe it's due to sex being discussed more openly although we have a long way to go. Telling people abortion kills a human being is equivalent, as far as discouraging an individual, as telling people pot smokers jump out of windows. Maybe a pot smoker did, at one time, jump out a window and maybe, by some set of criteria, a fertilized cell is classified as a human being but those arguments are not going to stop people.

When a teenager leaves the house on a Saturday evening many parents give them some money to be used if they require a taxi home. The parent isn't expecting their child to be among drunk drivers but one never knows.

How many parents mention condoms? Is it realistic to expect our teen to remember to carry a condom? Is it realistic to expect our teen not to possibly be swayed by sexual impulses when every living organism on the planet goes through the same thing including their own parents? Is there any legitimate reason condoms are not at every supermarket check-out? Every club and venue young people frequent? Every high school washroom? Every gym and ball park?

Thirty-five years after Row vs Wade is there anyone who doesn't realize the approaches anti-abortionists have taken don't work? The "moral" arguments that has been used down through the ages no longer sways people. There is no cut and dry argument against abortion because so many exceptions can be raised.

Along with emphasizing proper birth control an effort has to be channeled towards helping single moms. When women see others struggling with finding babysitters and a lack of finances and support calling a fertilized cell a human being is not going to make a damn bit of difference.


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The reasoning rests with the safety of the mother. If a mother will die because she remains pregnant then she has an argument for her safety. Her position becomes one of more than a mere location of another human being, but one of literal survival.

As to rape victims? I agree that the moral argument of life VS life fails the test. Still, since less than 1% of all abortions are due to rape I am also a pragmatist and could leave the moral argument to the state. That 97% of abortions occur because of a lifestyle convenience is unacceptable and I will always argue against this abortion as birth control attitude.
 
Apple. YOu seem to agree that it would be wrong then to kill the fetus, if the fetus is analogous to the innocent pharmacist in your analogy. Or do you advocate shooting up the CVS to get a fix?
 
Apple. YOu seem to agree that it would be wrong then to kill the fetus, if the fetus is analogous to the innocent pharmacist in your analogy. Or do you advocate shooting up the CVS to get a fix?

The fetus would be analogous to the innocent pharmacist if the fetus was a human being and that's where the problem lies. If one can designate some "thing" a human being then one must treat it as a human being unless we start on that road to different classes of humans. Do we want to live in a world where we assign different values to humans?

Let's say abortion is illegal but a woman can kill her post conception 3 month old son in order to survive herself. In other words due to her defective body she can not carry the fetus to term so the presence of the fetus, while doing nothing wrong itself, can be killed in order for her to survive. (If I'm not mistaken I think that accurately sums up the anti-abortionist position.)

Let's fast forward 10 years and mother and son are in a building on the 5th floor. The building catches fire and they move to a balcony. As the building is burning and they're waiting for the fire department and the ladder to rescue them the beams are falling down inside and the bolts holding the balcony to the wall are coming loose. The mother realizes the balcony will not hold both her and her 65 pound, 10 your old son until the fire department arrives. Does she have the legal right to push her son off the balcony in order to save herself?

(And before anyone says such a scenario would never happen or a mother would never do that I remind them of women who have drowned their children like Susan Smith of Union, S.C. and Amanda Hamm of Illinois who claimed her children interfered with her relationship with her boyfriend and just last month, in Arkansas, a 26 year old mother drove her car into a lake which resulted in the drowning of her three children, ages 2, 7 and 8.)

Would a woman's right to kill her offspring, in situations where one or the other must be sacrificed, continue in perpetuity or would that right terminate at birth? And if it would terminate at birth what makes birth so special?

As for getting a fix my doctor looks after me quite well, thank-you. :D
 
If one can designate some "thing" a human being
We're only saying designate human beings as human beings.
then one must treat it as a human being unless we start on that road to different classes of humans. Do we want to live in a world where we assign different values to humans?
In limited circumstances, it may be acceptable to place priorities on different individuals, like a "women and children first" kind of thing.

That's a far sight better than completely dehumanizing babies to avoid the complex issue all together.
 
We're only saying designate human beings as human beings.

In limited circumstances, it may be acceptable to place priorities on different individuals, like a "women and children first" kind of thing.

That's a far sight better than completely dehumanizing babies to avoid the complex issue all together.

It's not dehumanizing babies. Babies can be dealt with just as we deal with any other human being. We're talking about something that lives inside a human being. Something that is literally attached to a human being. Something that requires the body parts of a human being in order to survive. That "thing" is not a human being.

That is why the issue appears so complex. It's trying to apply rules/regulations/laws that pertain to human beings to something that is not a human being.
 
It's not dehumanizing babies. Babies can be dealt with just as we deal with any other human being.

We're talking about something that lives inside a human being.
An In utero baby.
Something that is literally attached to a human being. Something that requires the body parts of a human being in order to survive. That "thing" is not a human being.
It's an in utero baby. That's how human beings function at that state.
That is why the issue appears so complex. It's trying to apply rules/regulations/laws that pertain to human beings to something that is not a human being.

No. Your dehumanization just makes it overly simple in your grotesque fascist and murderous mind.
 
It's not dehumanizing babies. Babies can be dealt with just as we deal with any other human being. We're talking about something that lives inside a human being. Something that is literally attached to a human being. Something that requires the body parts of a human being in order to survive. That "thing" is not a human being.

That is why the issue appears so complex. It's trying to apply rules/regulations/laws that pertain to human beings to something that is not a human being.

Again.... please tell us when the magic human fairy appears to TURN the baby human.

Also.... please explain to us what species the unborn child is prior to the magic baby fairy's appearance.
 
I am not trying to win harts or minds, Im being logical. BTW who mentioned cancer? Most tumors are not cancerous, but a cancerous tumor is human is it not?

1) Its hearts, not harts

2) No, a tumor is not a human, an unborn child is. Unless of course you believe in the magic baby fairy... in which case I am sure you can tell us when it is she arrives to turn the child into a human.
 
A fetus is Human in the same sence a tumor is human.

Tumor tissue is much different than the the combination of speicialized tissues combining in a fetus to create a new human being individual.

There are human tumors and there are human fetuses. But no scientist would say a tumor and a fetus are analogous in any way.

Technically they're parasites. Parasites are people too.
 
It's not dehumanizing babies. Babies can be dealt with just as we deal with any other human being. We're talking about something that lives inside a human being. Something that is literally attached to a human being. Something that requires the body parts of a human being in order to survive. That "thing" is not a human being.

That is why the issue appears so complex. It's trying to apply rules/regulations/laws that pertain to human beings to something that is not a human being.

The human fetus is an individual human being. Its need for nurture continues outside of the womb for several years or it dies.

The human fetus has its own unique fully human dna seperate from the mother. Its own circulatory system and it creates its own source of nutrition via the placenta. It feels pain, gets gas, sucks its thumb.

Your argument is less intelligent than a child who may believe the stork brings babies.
 
Tumor tissue is much different than the the combination of speicialized tissues combining in a fetus to create a new human being individual.

There are human tumors and there are human fetuses. But no scientist would say a tumor and a fetus are analogous in any way.

Technically they're parasites. Parasites are people too.

A scientist would say they are alike in many ways, they both depend on the host to survive and thrive, they both get a blood supply from the host, they both grow inside a human, they both develop, they both are made up of cells, they are both 98.8% water..... I could come up with many more simularities.
 
A scientist would say they are alike in many ways, they both depend on the host to survive and thrive, they both get a blood supply from the host, they both grow inside a human, they both develop, they both are made up of cells, they are both 98.8% water..... I could come up with many more simularities.

translation... "yes, I am a fucking moron who is going to pretend a tumor is pretty equivalent to a child. In addition I am going to pretend that scientists would support my moronic assertion that they are alike."
 
A scientist would say they are alike in many ways, they both depend on the host to survive and thrive, they both get a blood supply from the host, they both grow inside a human, they both develop, they both are made up of cells, they are both 98.8% water..... I could come up with many more simularities.

But in more relevant and important ways, they're different.
 
Again.... please tell us when the magic human fairy appears to TURN the baby human.

Also.... please explain to us what species the unborn child is prior to the magic baby fairy's appearance.

We've been through this before. It's not a mystery.

When your mother or wife or whoever asked you to pick up a dozen eggs did you ever come home with a dozen chickens? If not, were you just lucky or could you tell the difference between a chicken and an egg?


Did you ever go to the store for carrots? Did you come home with a packet of carrot seeds? Did you ever go to the store for fish? Did you come home with caviar?

Honestly, Superfreak. You try a man's patience.
 
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